"Classic" maneuvers?

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CreedP
kbjone
Commissioner D2
Philippine Milkfish
Rip
Mitch!
Rebort
do0shebag55
thedemonkiller
Niki Heber
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Turd Ferguson

[CreedP]

So now that SNME has been out for a good while, and people have had the chance to play with the new Classic moveset, I'd love to hear some opinions about it.  Does it work well, does it need more F: 0 moves, more moves with (insert idea/effect), etc?

We have a handful of older pics of maneuvers we can use, its just a question of what the mechanic needs overall before we start adding new moves into the mix.

CREED

[do0shebag55]

I think Classic needs more maneuvers on both end of the spectrum 0F maneuvers and game enders. My main complaint is that there isn't enough Classic maneuvers IMO to run a pure Classic maneuver build without looking in to Uniques like Sucker Punch. I don't think that it would take more than 3 more 0F to make Classics more viable as that would run the 0F total to 12. On the other end of the spectrum, maybe a Classic Finisher that has a caveat that it can only be packed when packing Classic Competitor?

One idea i had for a 0F was a 3D maneuver with text kind of like Wraparound Wrist Lock with a Classic caveat.

"If your next card played is a maneuver with Classic in the title, it can not be reversed from Backlash or Hand."

Other than the obv. Hart Foundation, I found myself not using many Classic maneuvers for my SNME decks other than Classic Claw and Classic Bulldog Lariat so I definitely think they need a boost so I can run an all Classic Maneuver deck more efficiently.

[CRASHER]

Classic Claw and Bulldog Lariat are almost must packs, same with the clothesline that Andre, Kane, etc get the bonus on....the rest seem to be theme-based....if you're a kick deck, you add classic drop kick, punch deck can add classic punch, but unless you're Beefcake, or There is no Escape you're not gonna rely on them heavily.....

and oh yeah, classic kick to the groin is pretty awesome too!

the problem is if you beef them up too much "there is no escape" gets ridiculous ......

[CreedP]

True, on that last point, though if we do something about No Escape then we can develop the Classic moveset without worries...

Nice input so far guys, please keep it coming! 

CREED

[Jokerfish]

I think for the most part the classic maneuvers are missing 2-4 good 0f maneuvers. The classic maneuvers as a whole only seem to benefit a small group of superstars. I will say some non classic superstars get a huge bonus from theses cards( superstars like MVP and Kaientai) as their previous move pool was limited.   

[Rebort]

No reason to pack all of them, they have no kill power but Claw. Packing other maneuvers on top of the Classics creates fluff. I have no issue with relying on Superstar-Specifics to finish an opponent off, so I'm kind of 50/50 on them having kill power.

No reason to pack a couple, because then their backstage/pre-match support isn't being utilized to its full potential. There are better maneuvers to compliment a superstar/arch-type than packing a couple Classic moves + their support.

They really only become powerful when you have less Fort than your opponent. Even then, you become Goldust and Babe of the Year. Except you don't get to discard a card to remove two in their ringside pile, you have to successfully play a maneuver. And being behind in fort usually means good luck.

I think you maybe over-estimated how useful the "ignore the can be reversed" text on Classic Competitor is. It doesn't get around Managers, Sloppy, Revo, Superstar-Specifics, Outside Interference, King etc. Off the top of my head it gets around Nothing and Hate It, Nowhere Fast, Balls/Mouth and New Virtual reversals. Two of those latter reversals being non-recyclable backlash cards with Nothing and Hate It having a played from hand restriction. Unless I'm missing a obvious culprit.

I enjoy the idea that the Classic moves are a callback to their predecessors with interactive text. I wouldn't change that.

I use them in Jericho/Highlight. Obvious Unique reasons. I'd prefer if that didn't change.

Classic Press Slam/Powerslam with can only be reversed restrictions that would get around "Great to Be Back Here In" and turtle decks would fit the bill pretty well I think.

[CreedP]

I'm a bit confused by this point.  I get the general idea but then got to this part:

They really only become powerful when you have less Fort than your opponent. Even then, you become Goldust and Babe of the Year. Except you don't get to discard a card to remove two in their ringside pile, you have to successfully play a maneuver. And being behind in fort usually means good luck.

It's like this guy, except that its not?  lol 

Also, we didn't underestimate anything, the plan was never to make a slew of unstoppable Uniques, but to give the Classic Competitors a slight edge on the moves, so it does exactly what we wanted.

More good input, guys, thanks.. don't worry too much about trying to second-guess the design process, we have enough experienced eyes that generally speaking if something isn't doing what we want, we correct that part long before its 'released'. 

But so far it looks like a few more 0s are definitely preferred, with a couple more high-end type moves as possibilities.

CREED

[Theren]

I think you maybe over-estimated how useful the "ignore the can be reversed" text on Classic Competitor is. It doesn't get around Managers, Sloppy, Revo, Superstar-Specifics, Outside Interference, King etc. Off the top of my head it gets around Nothing and Hate It, Nowhere Fast, Balls/Mouth and New Virtual reversals. Two of those latter reversals being non-recyclable backlash cards with Nothing and Hate It having a played from hand restriction. Unless I'm missing a obvious culprit.

Return Bash of Scotty's Worm, Me LLamo, there are also quite a few superstar specifics that only reverse non-uniques

Classic Press Slam/Powerslam with can only be reversed restrictions that would get around "Great to Be Back Here In" and turtle decks would fit the bill pretty well I think.

Already does with Classic Competitor, It's Great to Be Back Here In only gets non-uniques

[Rebort]

Return Bash of Scotty's Worm, Me LLamo, there are also quite a few superstar specifics that only reverse non-uniques

Scotty is BASH, so a specific deck Arch. Armando is still only from hand that can also get actions and antics with a played restriction, albeit not a hard one to obtain and still only for a broader selection of decks. Classic Competitor helps you get Fort, not pin your opponent. Which is pretty much my whole issue with the classic move set. But like I stated earlier, it's nice if you rely on superstar-specifics to win games, thats how real matches are won. Not staples like Feline Spike was in UFS.

And yes, Classic Competitor stops Great to be Back, but only if you can pack it. Putting the can only be reversed restriction on the classic moves wouldn't break them for non-classic superstars or make them "must packs".

Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else.