Proposal - Velocity Format Banned List Change

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[MediumSexy]

Well, it's been awhile and we haven't seen much discussion on the topic here. I figured I may as well jump-start it. Here goes...
With Revolution cards (Sets 1-3 out) and the current state of tournament play, many players feel that the Velocity format needs to be changed. Since the old "Velocity" banned list was created before Great American Bash was released, I'm sure you'll all agree that a "tune-up" is in order. Here are a few proposals, please interject with your opinions on the following:

Current Banned List, Velocity Format
  Superstars:
Big Freak’n Machine
Bobby “the Brain” Heenan
Chyna
Doink
Evolution
Goldberg
JBL
Ric Flair
“Rowdy” Roddy Piper
Teddy Long
The Rock
  Everything Else:
APA or A-Train Enforcer
Shane O’ Mac or Stephanie Enforcer
Calling You Out
It’s All About the Game
It’s Showtime!
Old School Wrestling Match
Premiere Raw Superstar
Premiere SmackDown! Superstar
Pump Kick
Rules Were Meant to Be Broken
Simply the Best
US Title Belt
Steel Chain Shot
The Old Switcheroo
   


1) Banned Superstars - Several of the supserstars on the banned list could now be taken off, and at least three more added, possibly four. The three that definitely need to be added are: "Ken Kennedy", "Andre the Giant" and "Largest Athlete in Sports Entertainment", with the fourth being Vince McMahon (with the new Revolution cards he really is a NPE with his backstage card!) I don't really see a problem with most of the other superstars currently on the banned list. Especially if #s 2 and 3 (below) are implemented.

(*edit*) Superstars that should (or at least could) stay on the banned list:
Big Freak'n Machine
"Rowdy" Roddy Piper


2) Banned Cards that should be removed from the banned list - With the addition of Great American Bash, not to mention the addition of Revo 1,2, and 3, many of the cards on the banned list are no longer a problem. Many could be removed without creating a Negative Play Experience (NPE). These cards include:

*APA or A-Train Enforcer
*Shane O’ Mac or Stephanie Enforcer (This card's FAQ ruling "fixed" it)
*It’s Showtime! (Gives the "little guy" a chance without breaking the game, as there's still Distractingly Divalicious to keep the little guy from abusing it.)
*Calling You Out (Not really used much anymore, despite the lack of "You Rang?" and such.)
*Old School Wrestling Match (provides a small measure of defense against "A No Show", when played after all of No Show's prematch have been played)
*Premiere Raw Superstar (So many cards to deal with Combo now, this card hasn't seen much tournament action since the days of "Tables Goldberg")
*Premiere SmackDown! Superstar (Same as PRS, this card, while good, is a bit outdated.)
*Pump Kick
*Rules Were Meant to Be Broken (This cards helps against combo, no reason to ban it anymore.)
*Simply the Best (with cards like: Comeback(tb) and <R>It has Everything to Do With Me out there, banning this makes no sense.)
*The Old Switcheroo (Provides some protection against many game-swinging pre-match cards, with a good enough drawback.

3) Cards that need to be banned include cards from the newer sets that really are too powerful in their own right (and would allow for fewer NPEs while freeing up many of the above superstars to be played.)

Proposed Cards To Be Added to Banned List:
*All Tournament Kit/Prize cards and Promos (unless the card was reprinted in a set that was available for retail. Because let's face it, Legends weren't broken without Jimmy, and some of the hardest to reverse (and acquire) cards in the game are TK stuff. THIS ALONE WOULD ALLOW FOR A MUCH MORE BEGINNER FRIENDLY TOURNAMENT FORMAT!)
*<R>Double Your Value, Double Your Fun (Gives combo decks much too easy access to higher fortitude cards with a small investment, and it's VERY difficult to reverse.)
*Who's Cooler Than Michelle McCool? (This card is very unbalancing, in that it quite often allows for a one-sided version of "It's All About the Game" decks.
*First of All (See Who's Cooler...McCool?, above)
*<R>Live Fast - Fight Hard (First Turn Colossal decks make for a very unpleasant NPE - See also "Largest Athlete in Sports Entertainment")
*<R>Arrive, Raise Hell, Leave (See <R> Live Fast - Fight Hard, above)
*<R>Full Nelson Slam (To stop the new "Balls" combo decks and similar NPE builds)


In summary, the new banned list would look something like this:

Proposed Banned List, Velocity Format
  Superstars:
Andre the Giant
Big Freak'n Machine
Ken Kennedy
Largest Athlete in Sports Entertainment
"Rowdy" Roddy Piper
  Everything Else:
All TK, Prize Cards, and Promos (unless they have been reprinted in a set available from retailers.)
It’s All About the Game
First of All
Who's Cooler Than Michelle McCool?
US Title Belt
Steel Chain Shot
<R> Double Your Value, Double Your Fun
<R> Live Fast - Fight Hard
<R> Arrive, Raise Hell, Leave
<R> Never Give In, Never Give Up *
(*added this card and removed "Vince McMahon" from the proposed banned list)
(**also removed <R> Full Nelson Slam due to recent erratta giving <R> FNS "blindside" like trait)
Velocity Format Watch List
   Superstars
Rey Mysterio
Eugene
  Everything Else:


So, anything I'm missing? Any additions you feel would make this list (and Format!) better? Let's get cracking people!!!

I believe this would be a decent starting point and that we could take it from here.

Keep in mind. The Velocity Format will be CONSTANTLY updated as NPEs arise and bans are felt like they are needed. Also, the Velocity Classic format (found via this link:  http://www.teamcanadaonline.net/index.php/topic,4817.msg58557.html#msg58557 ) can be used as an alternative to the Velocity Format depending on your store/playgroup's liking.

[Ken B.]

I suggested such a format was necessary but got blasted for it, unfortunately.  Seems as though those who are left are "NO BANNING~!"  Even conditionally, such as this.


The game needs a format just such as this, it really does.  I like all of your suggestions.

[dilbert505]

Point of order. Not all of the TK/Prize cards are problematic. Yeah, Jimmy is, US Title Belt can be, but how broken is the European Title? If you're going to do something like this, might as well just surgical strike, rather than carpet bombing large swaths.

Of course, there's no reason this format can't exist, Ken. All you need to do is find enough people who want to play in it. (And this is coming from someone who is, for the most part, NO BANNINGS~!!!111!one!!eleventy!11exclamationpoint!)

[CreedP]

For clarification, here's my stance (and is probably the same as some percentage of remaining Raw Deal players).

For AA/AB/Revo.. don't ban cards.

For Velocity.. certainly, figure out what is okay and what people don't want, and have that as an ALTERNATE choice.

CREED

[Ken B.]

For clarification, here's my stance (and is probably the same as some percentage of remaining Raw Deal players).

For AA/AB/Revo.. don't ban cards.

For Velocity.. certainly, figure out what is okay and what people don't want, and have that as an ALTERNATE choice.

CREED

Hmmm...that is *exactly* how I feel...I must not have done a very good job of explaining that at some point.

[MediumSexy]

That's why I started this thread - to update the Velocity format only. And as far as the TK, prize and promos go... a few of them are game breaking go their own right, but many of the others create NPE experiences when combined. (The "That's" cards among them, not to mention Heenan.) Besides, Velocity should make it easier for a new player to compete in tournament play. Promos and TK cards are limited for a reason. They are designed to give you a decided edge.

[dilbert505]

That's why I started this thread - to update the Velocity format only. And as far as the TK, prize and promos go... a few of them are game breaking go their own right, but many of the others create NPE experiences when combined. (The "That's" cards among them, not to mention Heenan.) Besides, Velocity should make it easier for a new player to compete in tournament play. Promos and TK cards are limited for a reason. They are designed to give you a decided edge.

To some extent, yes. That still doesn't mean that it's necessary to remove them all from the format. Some of the TK cards, as I've said, are exceedingly powerful. However, I still see no point in saying "new players can't get them, they have to go." What else should be banned for that reason? Pat & Gerry? View of Villainy? If you're making a format where cards are being banned for balance purposes, ban unbalancing cards, not cards that are hard to get. If, on the other hand, you're making a format where cards that are hard to get are banned, then by all means, there goes the TK selection.

Honestly, I really think that your intentions can be dealt with by taking out the US and Raw IC belts, Vince GRA, 5th Anny, That's It (without which the That's cards are just utility), a couple of the movie cards, Heenan, Mouth, maybe Champ is Here (without which Raw IC is mostly safe to stay), and possibly Divine. I mean, what did Chris Nowinski ever do to make him broken?

[monkey]

I like it, but I think instead of banning all TK cards, just go through the list and bann the bad ones.

I think champ is here, Divine, Sigs, 5th, Power is back, FF and cheater ones, the finshers, moves of doom, Blatentchoke to anmea few are all ok and readly available

[thehoffman]

i would add Let me Get a shot in on the list as well

[dilbert505]

i would add Let me Get a shot in on the list as well

I'd be tempted to do the same, and throw in the Maneuver and Tornado Takedown of Doom, but then again I have serious Mr. PPV issues, and would be perfectly happy seeing him removed, neutered, or burned.

Isn't that right, Queensryche? 

[Queensryche]

i would add Let me Get a shot in on the list as well

I'd be tempted to do the same, and throw in the Maneuver and Tornado Takedown of Doom, but then again I have serious Mr. PPV issues, and would be perfectly happy seeing him removed, neutered, or burned.

Isn't that right, Queensryche? 

Yeah, you do.

Or rather, why not just ban Mr. PPV? That way you'll NEVER have to worry about him.

[dilbert505]

i would add Let me Get a shot in on the list as well

I'd be tempted to do the same, and throw in the Maneuver and Tornado Takedown of Doom, but then again I have serious Mr. PPV issues, and would be perfectly happy seeing him removed, neutered, or burned.

Isn't that right, Queensryche? 

Yeah, you do.

Or rather, why not just ban Mr. PPV? That way you'll NEVER have to worry about him.

Meh. I'd rather figure out what my decks are missing and add them. It's all about adaptation. Failing that, though, there's always coming to TCO and bitching about it. 

[ziggy zenf]

May I ask why Evolution is banned?

[CreedP]

Please re-read the original post.

CREED

[MediumSexy]

Edited (with an updated proposal for banned superstars) and...

Bumped.

Let's keep this discussion going. We've got a Qualifier for this format at GenCon. Let's make sure this format is balanced!!!

[areola]

Is the velocity format basically a format without NPEs?

[MediumSexy]

That's what we're trying for. To create a balanced format with as few NPEs as possible, by limiting cards and combos that afford an unfair advantage to players, while still allowing a large cardpool for players to choose from.

[BrysonYuzyk]

Though I'm more of a "tires don exits' person at heart, I recognize the need for this kind of format for a number of reasons.

I therefor highly recommend that you ban The Home Team.  Most of you should already know why (there are oh so many reasons), so I'm only going to provide one piece of evidence.

Worlds 2006.

GG.

[aochv1]

i would add Let me Get a shot in on the list as well

I'd be tempted to do the same, and throw in the Maneuver and Tornado Takedown of Doom, but then again I have serious Mr. PPV issues, and would be perfectly happy seeing him removed, neutered, or burned.

Isn't that right, Queensryche? 

Yeah, you do.

Or rather, why not just ban Mr. PPV? That way you'll NEVER have to worry about him.

I agree 100% with banning of Mr PPV and i would like Evolution to be banned too due to the fact that this superstar is the source of most NPEs ever since it arrived in Raw Deal if that don't deserve a ban,i would like to hear your reasoning on it?

[neuromancer]

Though I'm more of a "tires don exits' person at heart, I recognize the need for this kind of format for a number of reasons.

I therefor highly recommend that you ban The Home Team.  Most of you should already know why (there are oh so many reasons), so I'm only going to provide one piece of evidence.

Worlds 2006.

GG.

Oh yeah, I believe you are refering to the epic 3 hour match. Ain't you?

[CreedP]

And by "epic" you mean "most boring game of Raw Deal ever observed"...    I swear, I was taking down the match results, and I was cutting and pasting Frankie's actions in:

"F: draws for turn, uses ability, passes."  heh

CREED

[BigPimpin]

Not to be the curmuddgeon, but I kinda disagree with a lot of the choices.

First off, the superstars.  Andre, Kennedy, LAISE all belong on there.  Piper I'm on the fence with, but can understand and accept the banning.  BFM?  Vince?  I don't agree that either is such an NPE that they should be on there based on the banned list of cards.  If First of All was not banned, I would ban BFM in a heartbeat, just because that's a two-turn game if he gets the right pieces into his hand.  Vince, on the other hand...what's his game?  All of the antics he really uses and abuses are handlable and no more abusive than the actions.

Also, Home Team was fixed after (and because) of that match to the point where you have to fulfill both halves of the ability, wasn't it?

As for who is allowed that I believe shouldn't be...if you have a "watch" list for this format, original Rey Mysterio and Eugene need an eye to be kept on them.  I'd even go as far as to ban Rey Jr. outright and keep a close eye on Eugene (How many built-in momentum maneuvers do you have?  Really?).  Mr. PPV...eh.  He was abusive with the two prize kit high risks, but they're gone now.  I'd have to see the decks in action and see if he's as much an NPE as before. 

EDIT: Eugene might get off the watch list since Judgement Day was a tourney kit card.  But White Wedding may be just as good if there's no Don't Try's.

On the cards...(For this discussion, I'm gonna pretend that the errata discussed in this thread are shot down in flames.)

I'm not sure I agree with your logic on Double Double, Ric.  We've already established that we've housed combo decks for the most part (and the one combo deck I can think of that is left, being TDK/Not In Front of the Kids Rey Rey, doesn't need Double Double.)  Is it hard to reverse?  Sure, but so is Clutch Onto Opponent, and I don't see that on the list either. 

I also have issues with banning of SS-Specifc cards like <R> Arrive, but I can't fault the logic on this one. 

As to what can be added, that depends on your goal.  If combo decks are a problem for you and Rey Jr. is allowed to run wild, then Not In Front of the Kids should be on here. 

I'll have more feedback when I'm not at work, but just wanted to try and put some thoughtful debate out there and get some feedback as to what I might be missing.

[BrysonYuzyk]

Also, Home Team was fixed after (and because) of that match to the point where you have to fulfill both halves of the ability, wasn't it?

I don't know if this is true, but as I said in my post, it was only one of the reasons they should be controlled.

Despite the superstar being interesting and yes, somewhat fun to play, they remain quite possibly the most resilient character in RD, making more matches go to time than any other character ever.

The issue is not necessarily that they'll stall through their first ability, but that they'll stall through their second, their superstar specifics, and their easy access to fetching/cycling, not to mention all those OTHER recovery cards that everyone else has access to.

It sucks for a less experienced player to run into a deck which can suck up every maneuver in their deck and then kill them by drawing them out.  It's interesting in theory, but harsh in practice.

[Whitescorpion]

Wow, this is actually going somewhere? Nice...

Well, for superstars, the ones that are banned should pretty much stayed banned iMHO. Revo cards except for pre-matches should be cut.

[BigPimpin]

Also, Home Team was fixed after (and because) of that match to the point where you have to fulfill both halves of the ability, wasn't it?

I don't know if this is true, but as I said in my post, it was only one of the reasons they should be controlled.

Despite the superstar being interesting and yes, somewhat fun to play, they remain quite possibly the most resilient character in RD, making more matches go to time than any other character ever.

The issue is not necessarily that they'll stall through their first ability, but that they'll stall through their second, their superstar specifics, and their easy access to fetching/cycling, not to mention all those OTHER recovery cards that everyone else has access to.

It sucks for a less experienced player to run into a deck which can suck up every maneuver in their deck and then kill them by drawing them out.  It's interesting in theory, but harsh in practice.

This is a fair point.  I've played Home Team before (Cheater, no less) and I know how resilient that they can be.  They have easy access to Rochester, and if the BBD TB ruling comes back around, they are probably one of the best technical sponge decks in the game.

This opens up a couple of philosophical discussions as far as the intentions of the Velocity format, then. 

1) Why are we creating a Velocity format?  Is it targeted at beginners?  Is it for people who enjoy a "more fun" atmosphere?  Is it for people who hate combo decks?  Is it for people who hate sponge decks?  Or is it for as many of the people as we can please without pissing everyone off in the process?  That kinda affects how we look at certain cards; if we're more inclined to crush combos, as I stated before, Classic Rey Jr should be an automatic ban.  But if our focus is more on anti-sponge, we turn and look towards Home Team, <R> Undertaker, Noble, and others.

2) At what aspect do we look at for bannings, and how deep would we cut to look at the mechanics?  As a bit of personal philosophy, I really don't like banning Superstar and their Specific Cards unless they completely destroy the environment.  The only one I can think of offhand that meets that criteria is JYD's Chain and possibly the self-momentum moves, but there's a possibility that there's more.  Taking your suggestion as an example and applying my philosophy to it, I would be more inclined to turn my eye towards cards that help recovery like, say, Rochester, NY (which is such an abusable venue in constructed) and try to figure out if that's the card we should be targeting.