Velocity Classic Format Proposal

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[MediumSexy]

As mentioned in the "Proposal - Velocity Format Banned List Change" thread
(see this link: http://www.teamcanadaonline.net/index.php/topic,4365.0.html )
There seems to be demand for an additional "Velocity" format banned list.

"Velocity Classic"

Now looking at the currently proposed banned list for the standard "Velocity" format, which I'll mention points from, many of the suggested bans aren't really necessary.

(CUT/PASTED FROM STANDARD VELOCITY PROPOSAL)
Proposed Banned List, Velocity Format
   Superstars:
Andre the Giant
Big Freak'n Machine
Ken Kennedy
Largest Athlete in Sports Entertainment
"Rowdy" Roddy Piper
  Everything Else:
All TK, Prize Cards, and Promos (unless they have been reprinted in a set available from retailers.)
It’s All About the Game
First of All
Who's Cooler Than Michelle McCool?
US Title Belt
Steel Chain Shot
<R> Double Your Value, Double Your Fun
<R> Live Fast - Fight Hard
<R> Arrive, Raise Hell, Leave
<R> Full Nelson Slam
<R> Never Give In, Never Give Up *
(* added this card, removed Vince McMahon from suggested banned list)

Naturally, the aforementioned reasons for the Revolution specifics mentioned above and the superstar, Largest Athlete in Sports Entertainment can (without Revo itself) be basically thrown out the window... leaving us with this:

Proposed Banned List, Velocity Format
   Superstars:
Andre the Giant
Big Freak'n Machine
Ken Kennedy
"Rowdy" Roddy Piper
  Everything Else:
All TK, Prize Cards, and Promos (unless they have been reprinted in a set available from retailers.)
It’s All About the Game
First of All
Who's Cooler Than Michelle McCool?
US Title Belt
Steel Chain Shot


Now that we have this thread, those who have any comments and/or suggestions solely concerning the Velocity Classic format can post here. In fact, I'll also reserve the bottom of this post for a "Velocity Classic Watch List". (Edit: Looking at the original banned list, I will go ahead and put a few cards from it on the "Watch List"... let's see what you all think of them. Without Revo cards, they do seem a bit "iffy".)

Thanks!

Velocity Classic Watch List
Premier Raw Superstar
Premier Smackdown! Superstar

[Tenshigure]

You may want to remove all the <R> Cards, since a "Classic" format would automatically remove all of those, ne?

[MediumSexy]

Scroll down... (The list on the bottom is the Velocity Classic Format proposal, the one on the top is the Velocity proposal)

My bad for being unclear. Trying to update both topics at once, plus making a post about it on RDP.com as well...

[Whitescorpion]

I think as far as titles go, you may nto want to ban all of them, seeing as how a lot of the offer a small side benefit to certain superstars, ie: jamie noble.

However, the ones such as US title and Spinner belt can be rude (more us title than spinner).

I guess I could kind of live without the titles for now, because it does get increasingly annoying watching people play the belts over and over and divines,random big uniques. So if all tk prizes have to go, I guess losing the belts is a small price.

There are still the odd pre-matches that boost SSV anyhow.I wonder how drastically decks would change with this list at the time being.Does this list include stuff like road to victory,etc? or are those allowed becasue they were pretty available to everyone? U think Road is the most played of those cards anyhow, along with maybe 'White Wedding'

Also, as a side not: Having played against many set-up decks and play a couple myself. I think that Back Body Drop tb shoudl really maybe get restricted to one (i know raw deal doesnt' have 'restricted' per se) as it is a really really annoying card. Everyone is abusing the crap outta this card (not in the Ballz deck way, but nonetheless). I don't know if it's just me that feels that way about it, just wanted to put it out there.

Also, maybe put back flair, Rock, Chyna, goldberg and Teddy log on the banned list. They may nto be outright NPE's but they are very close to it. I am almsot tempted to add Booker to that list, but he somehow isnt' as 'safe' to play as the Rock.

I am really curious to see a competitive decklsit in this format. Woudl really really be interesting to see some results run with these restrictions.

[monkey]

I don't agree with the prize cards at all, you should ony ban the problem cards.

[JDub]

Yeah I don't like that all prize cards are banned. Cards should be banned because they are problems not because they are "worth to much" or "hard to trade for". This is a COLLECTIBLE card game after all and now you can probably get most prize cards from people trying to get rid of stuff for next to nothing.

Jimmy, US Belt, Spinner Belt (maybe)? That's fine. But WCW Belt, Divine Intervention, 5th Anni, etc. I don't think they should go away just because people think they are hard to get.

[HXCDisciple]

I don't think they should go away just because people think they are hard to get.

Amen, brother.  I've managed to procure a few of these cards myself, and to be told I can't play them in anything but AA, a format I'm frankly weak in?  What good do they do me then?  Do I put my DI or Let Me Get a Shot In or European title in my album and say "Look at my pretty"?  Nerts to that, man.

[dilbert505]

I'll jump on this bandwagon too. There are two philosophies of banning: one is to ban problem cards so as to balance the format, and the other is to ban old/hard to get cards so as to make the format more accessible. The problem is, when you try to do some of both, then the format becomes unnecessarily restrictive, and the more ways you tell someone "no, you can't do that," the less interesting it becomes. I'd vote for as little banning/restriction/errata as possible to make a reasonably balanced format.

[TempestTenor]

I'll jump on this bandwagon too. There are two philosophies of banning: one is to ban problem cards so as to balance the format, and the other is to ban old/hard to get cards so as to make the format more accessible. The problem is, when you try to do some of both, then the format becomes unnecessarily restrictive, and the more ways you tell someone "no, you can't do that," the less interesting it becomes. I'd vote for as little banning/restriction/errata as possible to make a reasonably balanced format.

That's a good point.  Here are some more things to think about:

1) Will the community attempt to recruit new players in the game?  Or is this just an exercise in keeping the game alive for the sake of the existing players?
2) Will the Velocity and Velocity Classic formats incorporate the new virtual RD sets that are in development?  Keep in mind that these new virtual sets won't be collectible.  Everyone will have equal access to every card.
3) And the biggest question as a result of 1) and 2): Since the old cards are out of print and the new cards are basically proxies anyway, should players be allowed to use proxies in official play?  Allowing proxies will eliminate the need to ban cards based on accessibility.

[HXCDisciple]

The idea of proxies doesn't sit very well with me, simply because then, you can go hog wild with the proxies, and that could result in an NPE that these formats are trying to avoid.

I'm not sure how the Virtual set will work into all of this, but my guess is All Axxess, maybe its own format.  Couldn't tell you, honestly.

[Tenshigure]

*sigh* I assume that any format where the Virtual cards are legal that proxies will too be legal. At least that's how I'd rule if we were to have our own versions of Survivor Series releases in Virtual sets.

As far as this exercise is concerned, of course it's to attempt to lure players back or introduce new players (with the full understanding that there's no expansion beyond what's already out there).

[MediumSexy]

Everything that Tenshi said plus this: If you'll re-read the initial post for the Velocity format proposed update, and look at the bottom of that post, you'll notice that the Velocity format will be CONSTANTLY updated. This means after the release of any V-sets AND whenever it ir deemed necessary that an update and/or a review is necessary. That said, I'm hoping to get ourselves back on track for the current revisions. Also, I see that in Velocity Classic, not all promos promos are unbalanced. More later...

[MediumSexy]

As promised, here is a list of the Prize cards available in Classic:
(I've bolded those that I think may be a problem, feel free to comment)
World Wrestling Federation Heavyweight Title Belt
World Wrestling Federation Intercontinental Title Belt
World Wrestling Federation European Title Belt
World Wrestling Federation Tag Team Title Belt
World Wrestling Federation Hardcore Title Belt
WCW Title Belt
World Wrestling Federation Lt. Heavyweight Title Belt
WWE Undisputed Heavyweight Title Belt
World Wrestling Federation Women's Title Belt
World Heavyweight Title Belt
Cruiserweight Title Belt
RAW Tag Team Title Belts
Smackdown Tag Team Title Belts
Shawn Michaels, Guest Ring Announcer
Chris Nowinski, Guest Ring Announcer
Big Show, Guest Ring Announcer
Rey Mysterio, Guest Ring Announcer
Raw Intercontinental Title Belt
United States Title Belt
Al Snow, Guest Ring Announcer
Hardcore Holly, Guest Ring Announcer
<WWE logo> Backstage Signature
<Raw Deal logo> Fifth Anniversary
Cardboard Currency
That’s Balanced!
Tornado Takedown of Doom
Vince McMahon, Guest Ringside Announcer
That’s Sub-optimal
Old School Manager
<WWE logo> Championship Belt
That’s … Something?
When Kurt Met Christy
Keibler Instincts
Dirty Taker
Pulp Mania
A Few Heel Men
Brave H
Eugene Gump
Activate!
Bobby Heenan (Superstar Card)
The Junkyard Dog (Superstar Card)
Living the Good Life
Managed by “The Mouth of the South” Jimmy Hart
Atomic Powerbomb Suplexbuster Piledriver Bulldog DDT of Doom
<WWE logo> Women’s Championship Belt
<Raw Deal logo> Championship Belt
<WWE logo> Signing Appearance
What a Maneuver!
Doink (Superstar Card)
<ECW logo> One Night Stand
Through All of These Years
<ECW logo> Championship Belt
The Champ Is Here!
Lip Lock
Let Me Get a Shot In
Blatant Chokehold
The Maneuver of Doom
Dynamic Finisher
The Finisher
<WWE logo> The Power Is Back
Big Time!
So Much Larger Than Life
Managed by the <WWE logo> Divas
Divine Intervention
<WWE logo> Spinner Belt


Any (constructive) ideas and/or thoughts?

[HXCDisciple]

I see no problems with a lot of these cards.  Jimmy Hart and Let Me Get a Shot In are the only ones I could seriously see being a huge problem.  Most of the other stuff is powerful, yes, but isn't that kinda the point?

[MediumSexy]

World Heavyweight Title Belt
Cruiserweight Title Belt
   Searching for RAW & Smackdown logo'ed things can be quite unbalanced. (First of All/BFM/Cruiserweight for a Face Stretch is just one example)

Raw Intercontinental Title Belt
United States Title Belt
   The US Title belt is deemed by many to be "quite unfair", (I wonder why ) but fair is fair, if it's gotta go, so does the Raw IC belt.

<WWE logo> Backstage Signature
<Raw Deal logo> Fifth Anniversary
   With these gone, Doink isn't a problem from the get-go, also, 5th Anniversary was the MVP in Eshgy's "Andre the Giant" deck of doom, as long as he got a turn back with at least 5 cards in arsenal, he could combo you out.

That’s Balanced!
   There's a reason I pack 3x "That's Balanced!" in every deck I play... it isn't "balanced" at all...

The Maneuver of Doom
   Mr. PPV, as well as many other decks can (and do) abuse this card

Vince McMahon, Guest Ringside Announcer
   This card is really strong, some would say too strong, especially when it's very existence brings the playing of stipulations to a grinding halt.

That’s Sub-optimal
   Meh, I'll concede this one isn't a game-breaker, but still, I could live without it.

<WWE logo> Championship Belt
   See the "searching for a # card" reference above, only this time, # = Chain or Volley

When Kurt Met Christy
Keibler Instincts
Dirty Taker
Pulp Mania
A Few Heel Men
Brave H
Eugene Gump
   These cards put JBL in the broken column, not to mention how many of them have been used as "kill cards" in many other decks, Brave H, Eugene Gump, A Few Heel Men (well, to clear the way for "kill cards", etc.

Activate!
Bobby Heenan (Superstar Card)
The Junkyard Dog (Superstar Card)
   Arguably some of the toughest legends to play against in the game.

Managed by “The Mouth of the South” Jimmy Hart
   The reason no one likes my Piper deck, along with all the "Pre-Match" control stuff...
seriously, though... gives Legends TWO turns to draw an answer for the opponent's "first three threats"

Atomic Powerbomb Suplexbuster Piledriver Bulldog DDT of Doom
   Another one of the "awesome TK maneuvers", searchable by several superstars, who can all abuse the searchability to overcome the "unique" trait drawback.

<WWE logo> Signing Appearance
   See the other backstage area cards above
 
Through All of These Years
   Yet another reason ppl despise playing against legends.

The Champ Is Here!
   This card has been flat out abused since it's inception.
 
Let Me Get a Shot In
Blatant Chokehold
Tornado Takedown of Doom
Dynamic Finisher
The Finisher
   Mr. PPV (for all the "high risk" ones), the others really are way too good imo, in what we're trying to make a balanced format

<WWE logo> The Power Is Back
   Combo deck fuel. (See Patching's JBL deck from Worlds '07)

Divine Intervention
   Technical Bear Hug + This card = never ending recursion, not to mention the fact that to reverse a completely unreversible card, you don't have to do anything, meet any fortitude requirements or anything, you simply have to pack one card.

[HXCDisciple]

It still feels kinda jank that a lot of my decks, which have one or two of these cards at most a piece, are considered out of the question in Velocity Classic because of it.  I've spent a lot of time getting my ass kicked in tourneys and trading to gather some of these cards, and now I can't use them unless I go All Axxess, where I don't have nearly enough good Revo stuff to counter there?  Seems like a bit of a gyp.

The one that really cranks me is DI.  I mean...that's kinda the point, isn't it?  To make sure you don't get rolled in one turn by packing that card?  It's called DI for a reason--it gives someone at least a chance to get back in the game when they're getting busted by allowing them a chance to breathe.

Some of these I agree on--Let Me Get a Shot In should NOT have been F:0 and D:25, I would've made it at least F:15 and D:15--but some of these cards, IMO, add drama to the match by allowing someone who's down to crawl back into contention, whether by recovering their Arsenal at the brink of pinfall (Through All These Years) or by just giving them a chance to play at all (Divine Intervention).  So some of them make sense, but others, I'd like to keep around.

[rated SRH]

I dont see were all the prize cards were that broken or that good really i agree we should only banned the problem promos.

[Anthony Lurty]

Can anybody make a final, banned list for my viewing pleasure? I do need to prepare my decks for gencon. Trying to look at this jumbled list on each post is confusing, lol. Thanks in advance.

[MediumSexy]

Ok, I'm hoping to get something finalized by the beginning of next week. If there are more cards you feel belong on the list, let us know. Thanks!

In the mean time, here's the updated banned list proposal:
(*Note the removal of Divine Intervention and That's Sub-Optimal from the list, making them legal.)
(**Also removed Activate!, it somehow got into a previous list by an accidental Cut/Paste, lol.)

Proposed Banned List, Velocity Classic Format

   Superstars:
Andre the Giant
Big Freak'n Machine
Bobby "The Brain" Heenan
Ken Kennedy
"Rowdy" Roddy Piper
The Junkyard Dog

   TK, Prize Cards, and Promos:
World Heavyweight Title Belt
Cruiserweight Title Belt
Raw Intercontinental Title Belt
United States Title Belt
<WWE logo> Backstage Signature
<Raw Deal logo> Fifth Anniversary
That’s Balanced!
Tornado Takedown of Doom
Vince McMahon, Guest Ringside Announcer
<WWE logo> Championship Belt
When Kurt Met Christy
Keibler Instincts
Dirty Taker
Pulp Mania
A Few Heel Men
Brave H
Eugene Gump
Bobby Heenan (Superstar Card)
The Junkyard Dog (Superstar Card)
Managed by “The Mouth of the South” Jimmy Hart
Atomic Powerbomb Suplexbuster Piledriver Bulldog DDT of Doom
<WWE logo> Signing Appearance
Through All of These Years
The Champ Is Here!
Let Me Get a Shot In
Blatant Chokehold
The Maneuver of Doom
Dynamic Finisher
The Finisher
<WWE logo> The Power Is Back

   Everything Else:
It’s All About the Game
First of All
Who's Cooler Than Michelle McCool?
US Title Belt
Steel Chain Shot

Velocity Classic Watch List
Premier Raw Superstar
Premier Smackdown! Superstar

[JDub]

I don't see why these cards are banned at all:

<WWE logo> Backstage Signature
<Raw Deal logo> Fifth Anniversary
Tornado Takedown of Doom
Activate! (Andre is banned so why is this a problem card?)
The Junkyard Dog (lol seriously?)
Atomic Powerbomb Suplexbuster Piledriver Bulldog DDT of Doom
<WWE logo> Signing Appearance

These are maybe they should be banned at best:

World Heavyweight Title Belt
Cruiserweight Title Belt
Raw Intercontinental Title Belt
The Champ Is Here!
Blatant Chokehold
The Maneuver of Doom
Dynamic Finisher
Vince McMahon, Guest Ringside Announcer
When Kurt Met Christy (JBL is pretty much the only reason for most of the movie cards to be banned)
Keibler Instincts
Dirty Taker
Pulp Mania
Eugene Gump

[MediumSexy]

I don't see why these cards are banned at all:

<WWE logo> Backstage Signature
<Raw Deal logo> Fifth Anniversary
Tornado Takedown of Doom
Activate! (Andre is banned so why is this a problem card?)
The Junkyard Dog (lol seriously?)
Atomic Powerbomb Suplexbuster Piledriver Bulldog DDT of Doom
<WWE logo> Signing Appearance

I removed "Activate", as mentioned in my post edit above, it actually made it into the list by accident, due to a Cut/Paste error (Notice it isn't in bold text under the others in a previous post... totally a mistake.

The Junkyard Dog: With Piper and Andre gone, JYD and Immortal One become the "legends to beat"... imho, JYD is the vastly more broken of the two... however, with enough feedback, I don't see why we couldn't take him off the list and move him to the "Watch List"

As for the other cards you mentioned, scroll up and read my breakdown on each card and why I feel they should be banned. (And try trusting me. I'm a better player than you think.)

[superradjoe]

If you're going to ban belts for searching, then you better add Taunt the Fans, Check This Out, and hundreds of other tutoring cards to the list since searching your deck is an effect that needs to be banned...

Tornado Takedown of Doom seems to be much more easily banned in the form of Mr. PPV, as he creates far more problems than TTOD does.