Wave 8 - Evan Bourne, Beth Phoenix, Gail Kim

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• Lashley Idea by Philippine Milkfish [May 22, 2012, 09:20:00 PM]
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• Last Chance Qualifier: S... by Commissioner D2 [May 22, 2012, 07:41:32 PM]
• Over The Limit spoilers! by gregburbidge [May 22, 2012, 07:25:59 PM]
• I Have 'Till Five........... by kbjone [May 22, 2012, 11:55:29 AM]
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• (August 06, 2008, 10:47:20 PM)

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piperspitt
CreedP
BigPimpin
Rio D
Queensryche
Commissioner D2
maskedllama
TheGreatWhiteDope
do0shebag55
dilbert505
kingofkings_909
rachelmon

[Randy_Trash]

That's a benefit but, what I was referring to was the limitation og only being able to play one of any card to his ring area...just seems like it would be better suited for someone like Dean Malenko.  I didn't mean that getting 6 more cards was bad or anything like that...I just was wondering how he was meant to be built and played if he was limited to one of each card title in his ring area.

Also is there some way for him to make use of 3 hurricanranas(spelling?) or would he still only get to play 1 and therefore be wasting 2 cards of his arsenal on worthless cards(aside from sustaining and such)?

[CreedP]

Dean's already in the game, and as far as that goes - opinions vary.  Evan Bourne has a lot of originality (even if the WWE shoehorns him into cookie-cutter matches on Raw, watch his older ECW matches).

But I don't understand why you're suggesting that you should pack 3 of a card when you know you can only play 1.  That's like Premiere Smackdown 3 Minute Warning or Action-less Christy. 

We only give you the tools, its up to you to build well or poorly, we can't help you there, heh. 

CREED

[Turd Ferguson]

I never read prepare for take off. That's a nice effect to allow him to pack his reversals and set-ups while still giving him the versatility to one shot everything else.

[frehocc]

But I don't understand why you're suggesting that you should pack 3 of a card when you know you can only play 1.  That's like Premiere Smackdown 3 Minute Warning or Action-less Christy. 

CREED

Do I smell a challenge here?

[CreedP]

Only in the sense of a little kid's 'truth or dare', like a dare to jump off the roof or eat something gross.  lol  No, not a challenge at all... 

CREED

[Revolution_Payback]

I have a question on I think it is Born to Fly;
    Are the Spinning Heel Kicks considered reversals once they are in your Ring Area?

[Commissioner D2]

But I don't understand why you're suggesting that you should pack 3 of a card when you know you can only play 1.  That's like Premiere Smackdown 3 Minute Warning or Action-less Christy. 

CREED

Oh CREED, you know damn well why you should pack 3.     Just because he has an ability doesn't mean he has to use it.

[Daeva]

I have a question on I think it is Born to Fly;
    Are the Spinning Heel Kicks considered reversals once they are in your Ring Area?

Short answer: no.

Long answer: no, because they are never considered Reversals in the first place, you're just given permission to play them as a reversal effect. (No, this doesn't sidestep plunge, since it still says to PLAY the Spinning Heel Kicks as reversals.)

[OmegaStar]

Wow wow wow!  Seems that Beth could lay a serious beatdown!  I can't wait to build her! 

[burninginthesky]

if i'm reading correctly...flanked by arena security makes evan bourne incredibly broken...he can't be targeted by IAATG, mccools,  any card that moves cards from his hand, his pre-match and hand size can't be lowered and it's impossible for him to ever see the downside of playing the card because 5 of his pre-match cards don't take up slots...in fact any way you slice it flanked by security AND evan bourne are broken...in fact i can't believe anyone plays with these glorified fantasy cards. almost every one of them i've read so far range from over-powered, at the very least, to mind numbingly broken...did you guys even beta-test any of these cards?

[piperspitt]

I haven't played with it against Bourne, but everything I've used has been in perfect line for power or fixed shortly. I find these cards to be much better than most CI cards were.

[CreedP]

if i'm reading correctly...flanked by arena security makes evan bourne incredibly broken...he can't be targeted by IAATG, mccools,  any card that moves cards from his hand, his pre-match and hand size can't be lowered and it's impossible for him to ever see the downside of playing the card because 5 of his pre-match cards don't take up slots...in fact any way you slice it flanked by security AND evan bourne are broken...in fact i can't believe anyone plays with these glorified fantasy cards. almost every one of them i've read so far range from over-powered, at the very least, to mind numbingly broken...did you guys even beta-test any of these cards?

So you haven't played with any of this stuff, you're just making guesses without any actual experience, but you're trying to yell at the designers and playtesters with no cause other than your idea of how Bourne + Flanked actually DOES play?

Yeah, sorry, we don't allow trolling on TCO, lawl.

And he's not immune to Spinner Belt, Donnybrooking, etc. - sorry to run your rant with facts and stuff, but.. lol

CREED

[BrysonYuzyk]

if i'm reading correctly...flanked by arena security makes evan bourne incredibly broken...he can't be targeted by IAATG, mccools,  any card that moves cards from his hand, his pre-match and hand size can't be lowered and it's impossible for him to ever see the downside of playing the card because 5 of his pre-match cards don't take up slots...in fact any way you slice it flanked by security AND evan bourne are broken...in fact i can't believe anyone plays with these glorified fantasy cards. almost every one of them i've read so far range from over-powered, at the very least, to mind numbingly broken...did you guys even beta-test any of these cards?

Strong words.  Not that I agree or disagree, but the obvious problem here is as follows:

"...almost every one of them i've read so far..."

"...i've read so far..."

"...i've read..."

"...read..."

Do you know how bad it sounds that you're criticizing the play-testing when you haven't even play-tested them yourself?

Even if we assume no play-testing was done, we've also gotta assume that your mental conceptualization is better than that of every single person involved in the project?

I had nothing to do with this project, but even I'm offended by how half-cocked your response was.

[Commissioner D2]

if i'm reading correctly...flanked by arena security makes evan bourne incredibly broken...he can't be targeted by IAATG, mccools,  any card that moves cards from his hand, his pre-match and hand size can't be lowered and it's impossible for him to ever see the downside of playing the card because 5 of his pre-match cards don't take up slots...in fact any way you slice it flanked by security AND evan bourne are broken...in fact i can't believe anyone plays with these glorified fantasy cards. almost every one of them i've read so far range from over-powered, at the very least, to mind numbingly broken...did you guys even beta-test any of these cards?

tries to resist urge to feed the troll...resistance failing...failing.. .failed

Wow, somebody's wearing their douchebag hat today.  Here's an idea.  PLAY THE DAMN CARDS!  Criticize all you want, it makes no difference.  Cards have been tested, and tested, and tested, and tested some more.  It's half assed stupid responses like this that show why many people aren't on the playtest crew (no offense to those who aren't on the crew...aside from this guy).  You don't like the cards?  Awesome!  Here's a card for you, the "burninginthesky Memorial" card if you will:



And yes, I'm in a rare mood today.

[burninginthesky]

you are allowing, expecting and encouraging people to play with cards that are incredibly overpowered by the game's predetermined standards.i don't need to play with the cards to know that stripping a superstar of his ability or COMPLETELY stopping a strategy before the game even begins is broken. i don't know what YOUR criteria for a broken card is.but it obviously isn't the same criteria as the makers of the game, because they never made a card that turns almost every single opponent into a bad matchup for a particular superstar without the card being a bit of a challenge to get into play or/and having a pretty decent downside to playing it...-1 handsize is not a balanced downside to weakening 3 regularly played superstars blanking 5 regularly played cards and being IMPOSSIBLE to stop. that's what alot of the cards in these sets are like there's very few drawbacks to gaining ridiculous abilities. flanked by arena security is a good example. it puts both you and your opponent in a bubble for the WHOLE pre-match and the only "downside" is you're punished for playing above the limit of pre-matches. so the only punishment for skirting the rules is that you can't skirt the rules further? that's not a balanced trade-off at all. if you want people to treat this as a continuation then you have to follow the same concept of balance. you're trying to get TOO much out of evert single card. scale it back

[piperspitt]

On the contrary, prematch denial was broken and not fun. These new cards allow cards to be played. Gasp.... You mean a card game that I can actually play cards in? Yep. No longer is the game over by the end of the pre-match

[BrysonYuzyk]

Burning, listen.  Please.

You're going to face a lot of stone-walling here if you continue on like this.  The biggest problem with your claims is that you fail to cite sources, and without reference a lot of what you say comes back to "because this is what I think".  In the interest of dialogue, however, I'll entertain your claims one by one.

you are allowing, expecting and encouraging people to play with cards that are incredibly overpowered by the game's predetermined standards.

Cite sources.  The latter years of Raw Deal's development, pre-Revo, were arguably a deliberate attempt to worsen the game.  I was there, and can comfortably make a claim like this.  See below if you need further explanation.

i don't need to play with the cards to know that stripping a superstar of his ability or COMPLETELY stopping a strategy before the game even begins is broken.

I'd like to refer you to Piper, or Andre, or even Kennedy.  Unless you're willing to admit they're broken, in which case...

i don't know what YOUR criteria for a broken card is.but it obviously isn't the same criteria as the makers of the game, because they never made a card that turns almost every single opponent into a bad matchup for a particular superstar without the card being a bit of a challenge to get into play or/and having a pretty decent downside to playing it...

See above.  The way that Raw Deal developed in the later years, pre-Revo, was making people quit left and right.  It became a game which was fundamentally not-fun to play for many people, which is why shops were losing business left and right.  It's hard to take you seriously when you say things like "...they never made a card that turns almost every single opponent into a bad matchup..." when in fact that's exactly what they did, and frequently.

-1 handsize is not a balanced downside to weakening 3 regularly played superstars blanking 5 regularly played cards and being IMPOSSIBLE to stop. that's what alot of the cards in these sets are like there's very few drawbacks to gaining ridiculous abilities. flanked by arena security is a good example. it puts both you and your opponent in a bubble for the WHOLE pre-match and the only "downside" is you're punished for playing above the limit of pre-matches. so the only punishment for skirting the rules is that you can't skirt the rules further? that's not a balanced trade-off at all.

You may have a valid point here.  But any point you're trying to make is drowned out by the fact that you're doing it from the perspective of someone who has no involvement in the game itself.  The reason people play-test is because this very kind of armchair quarterbacking is proven to be ineffective; Trust me, we had a lot of people doing exactly what you're doing with old Raw Deal, and UFS, and every other game I've ever worked on.  Critical discourse is one thing, but for most people it takes a lot of hands-on in order to best see how everything interacts.  Unless you can show me your resume and give me three good reasons why I should believe your cursory glance at the material is enough to make such broad claims, I'm just not going to believe you.

if you want people to treat this as a continuation then you have to follow the same concept of balance. you're trying to get TOO much out of evert single card. scale it back

I would hazard that the vast majority of people on these forums would disagree with you.  Revo 4, and 5, have been great successes, and though I don't play them myself I have a fond appreciation for the fact that they're making a lot of people happy by revitalizing a game which would long since be forgotten otherwise.  If Revo 4 and Revo 5 DID follow the same "concept of balance" as old Raw Deal, it would have a fraction of the following that it does now.

* * *

In case you didn't bother to read the above, here's the short form: Your claims are wild and outlandish, and until you actually pick up the game and speak from a perspective of knowledge rather than theory, no one here's going to take you seriously.

[JaysonPhenix]

If you're so worried about Flanked you just pack "that card" that totally foils it

[Drywall]

On the contrary, prematch denial was broken and not fun. These new cards allow cards to be played. Gasp.... You mean a card game that I can actually play cards in? Yep. No longer is the game over by the end of the pre-match

I don't mean to postwhore, but...

Well said Piper. *slow clap*

Also: It kills me to admit it, because the superstars rank among some of my favorites in the ring...but superstar abilities like Piper, Andre and Kennedy, while awesome...are just WRONG. Too many NPEs in such a short amount of time in Raw Deal did nothing but hurt the game's lifespan, in my opinion.

[Jokerfish]

You know flanked is a powerful card. It is a magic bullet for a lot of one trick NPE cheesy decks. If i am a good deck builder and I am really worried about that card I would find a card  to magic bullet flanked. I present you that card.

I Want to Play the Game
Pre-match Feud
Look at your opponent’s Backlash deck, choose 1 non-Superstar-specific Unique Event card, he discards the chosen card; he looks at your Backlash deck, chooses 1 non-Superstar-specific Event card, and you discard the chosen card.
F: 0      D: 0
yes the draw back on this card is fairly hefty, but if the other option is your deck is stopped then play this card.
so quit complaining, know what you are talking about before you speak, and seriously chill out this a game it is supposed to be fun.

( yes I do find it ironic that i'm telling anyone to chill out considering the heated rules debates i've been in)

[Daeva]

Hi. I'm the guy who wrote Flanked by Arena Security. I'd like to point out a couple of things to you.

First off, your statement that Flanked's "downside" is that "you're punished for playing above the limit of pre-matches" is inaccurate. Players have a Pre-match Capacity of 6 in R5 and up, and Flanked makes you bury 2 cards from your hand for each Pre-match above 5. It's essentially a -1 Pre-match Capacity, except that you can't stack Capacity bonuses to trivialize it. In fact, if you DO stack Capacity bonuses, the penalty increases. (Of course, the other cost to Flanked is that you had to spend a Pre-match slot to play it.)

Secondly, sure, Flanked can do a lot. It's a meta card, and a pretty good meta card as well, but if your opponent is strengthening his own position instead of trying to tear down yours, Flanked doesn't do anything. It's a very strictly defensive card, in the same sense that Restart the Match is powerful but defensive. The difference between Flanked and Restart the Match / The Best Laid Plans... is that Flanked is pro-active and has to come out ahead of time to block the shenanigans it blocks instead of swinging in after the fact and fixing the damage.

As Creed pointed out, Spinner Belt and verious Donnybrooks still work because they take off after the Pre-match phase, beyond the scope of Flanked's protection.

[BigPimpin]

re: Enough Shenanigans (which got brought up here) and its counterpart in R5, Really, That's Enough Shenanigans

While I had nothing to do with their design, I believe the purpose of those cards was to even the playing field.

The superstars that were specificially kicked in the face (Mr. Kennedy, Roddy Piper, Andre, JBL) were done so for their own reasons.  JBL was a necessary evil if unique cards were going to be the exclusive design to this point, or we'd be calling JBL the brokenest of brokens.  The rest...well, they just weren't fun to play against.  And that's not my opinion; that's an opinion that was questioned on this site and recorded in a poll of the users of TCO.  To the best of my knowledge, the makers of the poll also attempted to call other people from other sites to represent (specifically SQC, but no clue for sure).  Same for Run the Gauntlet Enforcers and It's All About The Game.  Basically, people wanted to get past the Pre-Match phase and actually play their cards, without having to crowd their pre-match with bullet feuds and cards.  

And for each superstar that had power taken, power was given back.

-Both Kennedy and Piper got amazingly good backstage cards to help people rethink their themes, because they needed them.  They also got remakes, which came with five new cards to further boost their power and fix some of their new needs.  This includes a new Piper's Pit TB that in no way is affected by Enough Shenanigans
-JBL and Kennedy got Drawing A Blank.
-The enforcer decks all got good, powerful rewrites to compensate for their lack of Run The Gauntlet options (and their general lack of power)
-And was Andre really kicked so hard in the face?  He still ends turns, he still can cripple your hand with We Face + Obey, but now he can't completely drain you of resources for multiple turns without playing other cards.  

What this redistribution of power allows people to do is to actually play the characters they want to play in the game.  Aside from perhaps Trish Stratus, every character in this game is eminently playable (you could argue that Trish is playable, but I'm not buying yet).  

The drawback for all of this being a -1 SHS might be distasteful to you, and I can't agree or disagree all that much with your opinion.  But in R4 at least, there was also the chance of you running afoul of Backstage Shenanigans, which was also a significant drawback that you had to strategically plan for.

[CreedP]

you are allowing, expecting and encouraging people to play with cards that are incredibly overpowered by the game's predetermined standards

Wait, what?

Bourne - search for 6 cards, but can't play a card when that title is in his Ring.

RVD - search for 3 cards, Mid-match maneuver for Permanent 5F, Pre-match lets him search for any non-hybrid move.  +3 HS over Bourne

Los Guerreros - search for 3 cards immune to hand disruption, Mid-match 2D reversal hits all non-TMF moves and draws 2, Mid-match reversal hits Actions and gives an irreversible move.  +3 HS over Bourne.

How is that stronger than the 'predetermined standards'? 

Also, keep in mind that people were quitting Raw Deal due to NPEs such as Run the Gauntlet and Ken Kennedy.  As mentioned, we gave a means to shut down those NPEs, but in EVERY case, we gave something back instead.  Yes, its that horrible word - CHANGE! - but it was a good change, and so far the feedback has been very positive.

I don't know if you meant to be offensive with that remark about not testing the cards, but keep in mind that the people designing and testing these cards include the former rules manager (look me up in your rulebook! heh), former Raw Deal world champions, former #1 ranked players, playtesters, and people who have been active in the game for many years in heavy Raw Deal gameplay.  So while you may look at something, just like in the old days of spoilers, and think IT IS TEH BROKENZ!!!11!!    Rest assured we spend a lot of time debating the pros and cons of cards with strong effects like this, as well as discussing and playtesting new Superstars.

CREED

[njbrock22]

ya forgot one Creed...

Rene Dupree:  11 hand, HBTO(13 hand)[one of which will be Volley this to counter RTV], Underrated(16 hand), slightly better superstar specifics, and doesn't have to worry about HBTO's restriction, because it's his own ability.

but to sum it up as everyone else said, if ya don't like said card look for answers to it... geez... there are answers all thru the game OR if ya hate certain Virtual cards... just play classic... bleh... and stop necroing threads(yes i know do what ya preach...)

N.J.

"True glory consists in doing what deserves to be written; in writing what deserves to be read." - Pliny the Elder