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• (August 06, 2008, 10:47:20 PM)

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LordFa9

[Rein]

Florida had nearly 30 players arrested not that far back, and if that wasn't hit for lack of institutional control, this definitely won't be.  By the definition of that standard, Penn State doesn't fall under Lack Of in my opinion.  But even if you could change my mind on that #YouWon't, what exactly do you penalize Penn State for again?  They have fired the head coach Paterno,  fired the school president, everyone involved in the cover up that had knowledge is facing jail time, Sandusky will never see the outside of his prison ever again.

The easiest and fastest way to explain my position is probably this:
There were no violations of any written in stone NCAA legislation, everything was strictly on an illegal basis.  No players were paid/bribed or anything of the typical violations you see, the only argument you can make is the recruiting advantage possibly gained by keeping the scandal hidden.  But looking at the recruiting class still in tact through all of this story, the recruits still want to go to Penn State for the most part.  Some kids will walk away no doubt, but for the kids who grew up dreaming of playing for that school and in that stadium, this will not hinder their decision. 

I simply do not believe the NCAA will step in and set a new line on where and when they can step in on matters such as this, and will allow the hammer to be dropped by public opinion more or less.  The thing you don't seem to realize, is the NCAA quite simply is a bunch of cowards. The crime was involved in the athletic department, but was not an athletic violation.  Copy+paste time for one example:
----------
In past situations intertwining athletics and criminal activity, the NCAA became involved only when NCAA rules were violated, Potuto said. The 2003 murder of Baylor basketball player Patrick Dennehy by a teammate is one example.


"When the NCAA enforcement process was triggered there, it wasn't because that player was killed by another player on the team," Potuto said. "It was because the coach paid players under the table."

The NCAA responded with sanctions that crippled Baylor's men's basketball program for several years.

[lotjx]

You people, don't know Penn State like I do. They are sycophants. Don't believe me look at the statue that is a shrine of Joe Pa. They are Waco 2.0. NCAA should step in, because its fairly obvious that the board of trustees won't. They are either too terrified of the backlash after the riots or did not want to do anything and just move along. It also doesn't help the head of the state ie the Governor is on the board or was a member. He also yelled at a reporter for asking if he did enough when he was AD when all of this is going on.

Someone has to do something. This all steams from the football program. If Sandusky was part of the basketball or baseball team there, they would have gotten rid of him. They let Joe Pa believe his own hype and like a mad dictator used it to do whatever he wanted to do. So, the idea that the football team is not part of the culture that caused this is stupid. Its people, who don't want to lose one lousy college game on their sports package. And they will be lousy games, because Penn State schedule is weak sauce this year. Nothing will be lost expect money that will be feed into the machine. They will give some small money to the victims all the while keeping their bubble in tact.

I say eff Them, give them a two year death penalty, let the students transfer, and pay the coaches. The world will not need if State College doesn't play on Saturday and in a mid level bowl in January. A message needs to be sent, because paying players and agent infractions for sanctions looks pretty effing stupid compared to this. The system from the football program is to blame for this entire mess and if the rioters eff up State College have Obama send in the National Guard to bust some heads, because that pussy in Harrisburg won't. Maybe a few of them will really think about what they are rioting about and realize how stupid they look.

[piperspitt]

Maybe they should just close the school altogether. Let all of the students transfer. Send a message.

[Jokerfish]

Okay let's be rationale here. Anybody who had a hand in turning a blind eye or covering for this heinous act, should be Fired/Have charges be leveled against them. The only times Death penalties to sports programs has been where there was massive violations among the players and The chain of command. That is not the case here. I personally think that the Joe Pa statue should come down, But I am not outraged that is not. It is just a statue and Joe Pa's legacy is so tarnished that anytime someone looks at it for years to come they will think of this tragedy and his role in it. Not his college football records.
To punish the students and coaching staff (of which I'm pretty sure there is no one left from Paterno's cadre of coaches left) would be harsh to people who more than likely sympathize with the victims and want to make Penn State a better place so things like this would never happen again. The NCAA May or may not take a swing at Penn St. Once the criminal ramification have been settled for those who were involved, and fines and penalties have been levied, If it still seems light then make a complaint. Right now things have to take their due course before we can say kill the program.

[piperspitt]

I totally agree with you. MOAR cowbell co
Ing your way.

[lotjx]

It was harsh to keep USC out of the bowls for two years when Bush was gone for about four years ago. It didn't stop them from doing. Also, we have no idea who turned a blind eye to what. We are now talking about allegations in the 70s. For all we know the board knew who also got bashed in the report. So, if you have a President, a coach, board members and all other officials covering all this up. The question becomes who isn't to blame? We can say the coaching staff now, but crap they knew when they joined up that things were going to be effed. Urban Meyer is with Ohio State and you don't him whining about their problems. We also under the assumption that the players don't know either which is a large assumption to make considering a locker room is a giant gossiping den anyway. I am sure some of them had an idea.

It just seems to me there is a lot of weak willed people out there. Who have this childish notion that fair everything will go back to normal at PSU, now the bad guys have been caught. You are kidding yourselves. The board is doing nothing and now the head of the NCAA is talking death penalty. The statue should come down, because is now a holy shrine on the campus to be worshiped at. And the football program should be shut down for 2 years, minimum.

I am an ND fan and while it wouldn't shock me that this happened at Notre Dame, I would still say give them the death penalty. Hell, shut it down. Its not worth it. You can get money through other places and maybe focusing on academics more instead of a game that is played six times at your college.

[piperspitt]

What good could possibly come from executing the Penn State football program? I can name a lot of areas in which people would suffer, but what would the benefit be and who would benefit.

[Theren]

ok listen, this is getting ridiculous. I understand the flames of anger as much as anyone and have always hated Penn State for a variety of reasons. But stop and think for a second. What you are basically saying here is "This person destroyed the lives of children and these other 5-6 didn't do anything, so lets eff up the lives a half dozen to a dozen other faculty, 50-100 other kids who happen to be on the team and half the income of a couple hundred people in the town who had nothing to do with it. Get real, killing the football program will hit a bunch of people that had nothing to do with the incident and won't do crap to anyone involved because they are already gone from the school and will just see it as good, at least I took the rest of the school/program down with me.

[Theren]

not to mention the fact that media outlets who think exactly like you are causing the situation to extend longer and longer which is in turn causing the kids to dwell on it more and more preventing them from being able to put it behind them as much as they should. so maybe the hellfire and brimstone media who keeps this alive instead of letting everyone including the victims move on should be shut down and punished extremely as well.

[lotjx]

 So, its ok for those businesses to make millions off the program while this was going on. Even promoting the image of Joe Pa as a giant figure which helped Joe keep the power he had in that city. Yet, when this goes south, they cannot be bothered to suffer.  Tough. As for the media if the morons at PSU weren't just totally ignoring the calls for them to do something on top of the students protecting the statue like its the Ark of the Convenient, it wouldn't come to this. The lets blame the media doesn't hold water for me.

I think the real reason, a lot of you are resistant is due to your own programs or the fact some of you have PSU on the schedule or in your conference or some of you are just being assholes for the sake of being internet tough. The reality is if you want to kill the culture that created this you have to kill the football program. Anything else is just crap.

[piperspitt]

You need a reality check. Of course it is okay for businesses to profit, they had nothing to do with it.  Anyone found to do anything wrong is being fired. Bam, the culture has changed. As for your assumption, you're wrong, I do not even watch college football. I do however have common sense and that tells me that you punish the guilty not the innocent.  Punishing innocent people will not magically unmolest those boys, it would not benefit anybody.

[BigPimpin]

So lotjx, in this thread you have now said:

-all officials in PSU athletics and on the board from the 70's forward may have covered this up
-all the players should have known, because the locker room is full of gossip.
-Anyone associated with Penn State football in any way should be punished.  My brother in law, who has a PSU banner in his bedroom, should now be made to pay because a pervert he never saw in his life did pervert things and it was covered up.by a university staff that he has no contact with.
-people want the football program to live so the Big 10 has a cupcake divisional opponent, which is right there for "Most Narrow-Minded Statement of the Decade"

Here's what I see/feel about the situation:

1) I think the NCAA should penalize Penn State so they have a precedent to go to other lawbreaking programs and warn them that this criminal kind of conduct will not be acceptable.  But Death Penalty is too extreme.  Make them a USC-style lame duck.  There's no way to paint these players in particular with the broad bush of scandal when we have no clue what they knew or didn't know.  Remember, innocent until proven guilty.  They should get to play football if they so choose.

2) The statue should come down because it will become a target for attack, crime, and hatred for as long as it stays up.  JoePa is now too polarizing to risk that kind of problem happening on their campus.  Mark my words, should the statue stay up, it will either get destroyed or someone will get seriously hurt in a fight attacking/defending it.

On a side note, I find it funny that the president of the NCAA came out and threatened the death penalty after the report of "statue stays" was leaked.  I wonder if PSU can save itself from a football death penalty by killing the statue.

3) Regardless of what the NCAA does, if you've attached your business to the Penn State brand, your business will suffer.  The brand is irreparably tarnished from a marketing perspective...it will take YEARS to get that stain off.  

4) People who look at this issue with emotion seem to be painting with a very wide brush.  As someone who believes strongly in personal culpability over wide-arching stereotypes, I am disturbed by that.

5) Have any of you ever watched a single episode of Law & Order SVU?  Once they reach the end of the show and the perp goes to jail, what's the conversation that's usually had at the end?

Victim: So what do I do now?
Benson: Move on with your life (hands victim counseling service card).

The more we talk about this and dissect it and give it national attention (we the nation, not we the TCO), the harder it will be for the victims who have faced this monstrous human being to try and move on with their lives.  If we the people gave two shits about the victims of this crime, then we need to make this come off TV.  Now.  TV executives, Do what the WWE did to that guy who pioneered the Crossface and make it all disappear.  And for the rest of us, who are watching the stations...we need to speak with our Nielsen ratings and change the channel so news/sports stations get the friggin' hint.  

[JDub]

Here's what I see/feel about the situation:

1) I think the NCAA should penalize Penn State so they have a precedent to go to other lawbreaking programs and warn them that this criminal kind of conduct will not be acceptable.  But Death Penalty is too extreme.  Make them a USC-style lame duck.  There's no way to paint these players in particular with the broad bush of scandal when we have no clue what they knew or didn't know.  Remember, innocent until proven guilty.  They should get to play football if they so choose. 

So it's more fair to the innocent players to be punished by basically making all of their games meaningless instead of killing the whole program and punishing the university who let this happen and letting those innocent players transfer to other schools so they can actually compete and care about the games they are playing in? Everyone wants the people who are responsible to get punished and not the players, coaches, etc who had nothing to do with it but in the end they are going to get the short end of the stick anyways. Maybe the death penalty would actually be a better thing for those players?

[piperspitt]

JDub makes a good point, however that would possibly be better for the players but not the businesses, alumni, fans, etc.
  This is a criminal issue, it is not a rule infraction that is cheating or attempting to get an unfair advantage. I don't believe that the NCAA should have any jurisdiction over that.

[dilbert505]

Some good points raised on both sides of the death penalty issue. Perhaps a compromise: allow Penn State to keep their program, but permit any player who requests one to transfer to another school without loss of scholarship or eligibility. If there's a way of requiring Penn State to reimburse the receiving school for the scholarship, and losing that scholarship until the player graduates from his new school, they should do that, too. However, any player who wishes to stay and play for the program (which, as I understand it, includes nobody who was in a position of power during the Sandusky incident) should be able to do so under their new head coach. That way, no player is required to remain at the school if they do not wish to, those players who do want to remain Nittany Lions are given the opportunity to do that as well, and the city of State College doesn't suffer from the loss of what was believed until this was revealed to be a source of civic pride, not to mention income.

[BigPimpin]

Here's what I see/feel about the situation:

1) I think the NCAA should penalize Penn State so they have a precedent to go to other lawbreaking programs and warn them that this criminal kind of conduct will not be acceptable.  But Death Penalty is too extreme.  Make them a USC-style lame duck.  There's no way to paint these players in particular with the broad bush of scandal when we have no clue what they knew or didn't know.  Remember, innocent until proven guilty.  They should get to play football if they so choose. 

So it's more fair to the innocent players to be punished by basically making all of their games meaningless instead of killing the whole program and punishing the university who let this happen and letting those innocent players transfer to other schools so they can actually compete and care about the games they are playing in? Everyone wants the people who are responsible to get punished and not the players, coaches, etc who had nothing to do with it but in the end they are going to get the short end of the stick anyways. Maybe the death penalty would actually be a better thing for those players?

Ask Matt Barkley and Robert Woods about not having a postseason for the last two years; they seem to have done OK playing a full regular season, as they're both projected to be top 5 NFL draft picks.  The kids are still playing football...whether they're NFL bound or just college kids who happen to be playing football, there's still a program.  At the end of the day, I think that's the best compromise for all sides: there's still a football team that can pick up and move on, but the university that makes boatloads of cash from bowl games and such is taking a penalty.  This isn't "cancel football for 2012 and some of 2013."

There is no such thing as an ideal solution here.  The closest thing to it may be what Dilbert and someone else is suggesting; allow an amnesty transfer for any player without loss of eligibility.  I still think the NCAA, right or wrong, will make a statement on this at Penn State's expense.  Unlike the Baylor basketball situation, this may not be one man committing a crime on another; it is potentially a systemic condition, and the NCAA will probably treat it as such whether it's fair or not.

[Rein]

The only thing I have to say to that last post about Barkley and Woods, is you don't let the exception validate the rule. The NFL "rule" about quarterbacks ideally being tall is still true, just because Drew Brees and one or two others are elite elite NFL QB's that are shorter in statue, doesn't mean you automatically want shorter QBs.  Because they have top ten NFL draft talent, doesn't mean that they don't care about their school being punished over things they had no involvement over. 

[Queensryche]

The NCAA it seems has expedited the process.

Tomorrow they'll be announcing sanctions against Penn State for the institution's failure to stop Jerry Sandusky. They decided that rather than hold their own hearing (which can take a lot of time), they're going to go off of the Freeh Report and hand sanctions down based off of what was reported in it.

Word is that the penalties announced will be "unprecedented" and that the NCAA President will be levying new sanctions made specifically for a situation like this.

The penalties will be revealed tomorrow at 9 AM.

UPDATE: According to sources, the penalties will NOT include the NCAA Death Penalty. But the penalties that will be handed down are allegedly so harsh that it makes the Death Penalty seem minor in comparison.

[Queensryche]

And the verdict is in:

The penalties announced are as follows:

-$60 million fine, to be endowed to charities that help victims of child abuse
-4 year postseason ban
-Loss of 20 scholarships per year
-5 years probation
-All wins from 1998-2011 vacated


I still feel this didn't go far enough. They should've suspended the entire program for a year, and then after that brought them back under these conditions.

As for the wins being vacated, I know people here (I'm looking at you Piper) will say "So what, they already happened". Yeah, but due to the wins being vacated, Joe Paterno is no longer college football's all-time winningest coach, which I feel is the bigger statement.

[Rein]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Gricar

I'm a sucker for unsolved mysteries/paranormal type stuff, just randomly stumbled across this.  I had no idea the investigator from before that wanted to press charges mysteriously disappeared and they found his laptop in a river and car locked with phone inside....Makes you wonder eh?

"The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy" - Unknown