Legacy of Chris Benoit

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• (August 06, 2008, 10:47:20 PM)

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Buddha Dudley
darkcolts77
dilbert505
ziggy zenf
mrpeoplesteam
piperspitt
StraightEdge0722
CreedP
Queensryche
BigPimpin
winternorn
JaysonPhenix

[piperspitt]

True, I do not see it. I apologize if thats frustrating anybody, or if im coming across as frustrated/bothered. I'm trying to understand, via questions. Conmon sense tells me that a mere mention or match inclusion shouldn't bother anybody, but common sense isn't always used.  The information on the Elimination Chamber DVD answers some questions and shows that WWE lets some stuff out.  Does anybody know if his appearance in that DVD caused any backlash?

[JDub]

Your the WWE. How do you ethically justify glorifying and making money off of a murderer?

And better yet, why even bother?

[king1050]

Reguardless of what he may or may not have done outside the ring, it should not overshadow the great wrestling career he had. 24 years in the ring and if you ask any retired wrestler the kind of style he wrestled and the matches he wrestled in can and will take an effect on you, he took a lot of chair shots and bumps on his head that may have screwed his head up just ask the people who have had a lot of concussions it can change you.

[LordFa9]

I think you are mispeaking when you say that "his behavior was directly attributed to CTE".  If murder and CTE were effect and cause, shouldn't Andrew Martin be a murderer as well?
  I'm not suggesting that WWE speak fondly of him, but it's hard to put together proper anthologys for other wrestlers while ignoring his existence.

CTE doesn't necessarily mean one will be a murderer, but when someone has a serious brain illness and then acts way outside of character I think there has to be a strong correlation between the two.

The difference between OJ and Benoit was highlighted earlier, but I would like to expand on it. Benoit's CTE was caused by his in-ring career. If WWE were to highlight his career it would also highlight the fact that professional wrestling can cause CTE. Clearly that is something the WWE does not want to be in the public discourse. Granted they have taken steps to curb that trend by taking out foreign objects to the head, but it is still not something they want to bring up. Maybe some day down the road they can at least acknowledge he exists, but right now with what is going on in the NFL CTE is at the front of sport fan awareness. The WWE does NOT want to be associated with that for obvious reasons.

while there might be a segment of fans that can watch a Benoit match or moment and just see that moment for what it was, there will always be people who see him and only see his final acts. Benoit was a great performer. That is a fact. Benoit was a murderer. That is a fact. Are these two things separate? Yes. Can some people see them as separate? yes. Can others not see them as separate? No. Does WWE ever have to acknowledge the man? No. Should they? Maybe. Will they? No.

Will they ever get to the point his stuff can be put on DVDs? When it is completely unavoidable: yes. The complete Elimination Chamber DVD set has him on it because it is unavoidable. All commentary talking about him is completely gone though.

Does this mean future generations will miss out on the quality of work put forth by the man? Maybe. But his stuff is freely available online if you want to dig even a small hole. Plus with the advent of youtube anyone looking for benoit material can freely find it.

Turd Ferguson and TheGreatWhiteDope  pretty much covered everything I wish to say on this topic really.

I liked Benoit ever since I first saw him wrestle in the late 1990s. But even then I felt a sense that something was not right about that man; and while I can separate Benoit the wrestler from Benoit the "roidhead murderer" the fact will always remain that those two are the same guy

[piperspitt]

Your the WWE. How do you ethically justify glorifying and making money off of a murderer?

And better yet, why even bother?

I'm not suggesting that they make money off of him.  Do not put him in the HoF, do not sell a Chris Benoit anthology.
I'm simply suggesting that they stop ignoring the history of other wrestlers because their opponent happened to be Chris Benoit. Chris Benoit should not ever be glorified in my opinion, but ignoring history is not moving past.

[Wallemania4life]

it because of this that the remaining WWE Survivor Series Anthology DVDs have not been released, am i correct in that?

[piperspitt]

Possibly, but if he is on the elimination chamber DVD.............

[Scotty]

I am one of those people who have no use for Benoit because of what he did. Regardless of cause - he killed his wife and child and banning him from existance still doesn't seem like enough punishment.

I was one of those people who sold my Benoit set with FTTOM (TB) for $50, just so I wouldn't have to look at his face anymore.

WWE shouldn't include him at all in anything because then people will demand he get his own DVD or be inducted into the Hall of Fame - just like people are currently wondering why he isn't on DVDs...you're trying to use the foot-in-door technique and WWE won't and shouldn't have anything to do with it.

[JDub]

Your the WWE. How do you ethically justify glorifying and making money off of a murderer?

And better yet, why even bother?

I'm not suggesting that they make money off of him.  Do not put him in the HoF, do not sell a Chris Benoit anthology.
I'm simply suggesting that they stop ignoring the history of other wrestlers because their opponent happened to be Chris Benoit. Chris Benoit should not ever be glorified in my opinion, but ignoring history is not moving past.

You want them to show his matches and talk about him and what a great wrestler he was, aka glorifying the man, who is a murderer. Any DVD he would be on that they sell, they are making money off of him. WWE is a business, in no way shape or form is mentioning Chris Benoit a good business move. Just like I said the first time if your WWE ethically how can you justify bringing up Chris Benoit? And "he was a good wrestler" isn't one.

[piperspitt]

I am one of those people who have no use for Benoit because of what he did. Regardless of cause - he killed his wife and child and banning him from existance still doesn't seem like enough punishment.

I was one of those people who sold my Benoit set with FTTOM (TB) for $50, just so I wouldn't have to look at his face anymore.

WWE shouldn't include him at all in anything because then people will demand he get his own DVD or be inducted into the Hall of Fame - just like people are currently wondering why he isn't on DVDs...you're trying to use the foot-in-door technique and WWE won't and shouldn't have anything to do with it.

No foot in the door technique here. I would never buy a Benoit DVD and I don't want him in the HoF. However I'm a huge Kurt Angle fan and some of HIS best matches were against Benoit. I'd only want the match for the sake of seeing Angle's best matches.

[piperspitt]

Your the WWE. How do you ethically justify glorifying and making money off of a murderer?

And better yet, why even bother?

I'm not suggesting that they make money off of him.  Do not put him in the HoF, do not sell a Chris Benoit anthology.
I'm simply suggesting that they stop ignoring the history of other wrestlers because their opponent happened to be Chris Benoit. Chris Benoit should not ever be glorified in my opinion, but ignoring history is not moving past.

You want them to show his matches and talk about him and what a great wrestler he was, aka glorifying the man, who is a murderer. Any DVD he would be on that they sell, they are making money off of him. WWE is a business, in no way shape or form is mentioning Chris Benoit a good business move. Just like I said the first time if your WWE ethically how can you justify bringing up Chris Benoit? And "he was a good wrestler" isn't one.

When did I say I wanted them to talk about what a great wrestler he was? Did you even read my posts? Having an Orton DVD with one match of Orton vs Benoit is making money off of Orton, not Benoit.  Besides the words ethical and WWE don't typically go hand in hand anyway. Do you think that the NFL is unethical for listing OJ Simpson as one of the top ten best running backs ever?

[JDub]

Your the WWE. How do you ethically justify glorifying and making money off of a murderer?

And better yet, why even bother?

I'm not suggesting that they make money off of him.  Do not put him in the HoF, do not sell a Chris Benoit anthology.
I'm simply suggesting that they stop ignoring the history of other wrestlers because their opponent happened to be Chris Benoit. Chris Benoit should not ever be glorified in my opinion, but ignoring history is not moving past.

You want them to show his matches and talk about him and what a great wrestler he was, aka glorifying the man, who is a murderer. Any DVD he would be on that they sell, they are making money off of him. WWE is a business, in no way shape or form is mentioning Chris Benoit a good business move. Just like I said the first time if your WWE ethically how can you justify bringing up Chris Benoit? And "he was a good wrestler" isn't one.

When did I say I wanted them to talk about what a great wrestler he was? Did you even read my posts? Having an Orton DVD with one match of Orton vs Benoit is making money off of Orton, not Benoit.  Besides the words ethical and WWE don't typically go hand in hand anyway. Do you think that the NFL is unethical for listing OJ Simpson as one of the top ten best running backs ever?

But if he wasn't such a great wrestler then why would they need to include him on DVDs? I don't hear too many people clamoring for Crash Holly or Test matches to be on DVDs. The point is that if they put him on these DVDs and/or mention him it would be because he was such a great performer and that over looks what he did his last few days. Just like I said, glorifying a murderer. It's basically admitting that his wrestling career was bigger then what he did because it doesn't matter that he killed his wife and kid because he was a damn good wrestler! It's just like someone else said your using the foot in the door technique.

And they wouldn't be making money off of him if they put him on the DVD? You sound like you are upset that he isn't on DVDs and maybe don't buy any because of it, yet if Benoit was on it you would be happier and buy it. That's how they make money off of using him. Without Benoit you probably wouldn't buy it, with him you would. That's $20+ they wouldn't have had.

The thing about OJ is first off he wasn't found guilty. Second while murder is murder, killing your ex-wife and her friend if different then killing your wife, kid, and yourself one a day over the weekend. Leaving bibles by them etc. That's like eff'd up horror movie type of stuff, but it was real. And most importantly what OJ did doesn't have anything to do with the NFL. Most people think what Benoit did was because he was on roids and it made the WWE look bad. How much bad publicity did the WWE get after that happened? They don't have testing, they are all on roids, etc. Why the hell would they want to bring that up again in any way shape or form? It's more like their dirty little secret that they don't want to bring up anymore. Not that they were part of the reason that Benoit did that, but a lot of people don't see it that way. They will see it as them glorifying one of their own who roid raged and killed his family. What OJ did doesn't make the NFL look bad. What Benoit did makes the WWE look bad. Not fair but it's reality. There is absolutly NO reason they should ever bring up Benoit again. They aren't (or more like weren't) the most ethical company but this is even a line they won't cross. Again they are a business and if they ethically don't want to mention him or make money off of him and mentioning him might hurt business then why do it?

[Rein]

I'm a little bit on pipers side here, I can understand not mentioning Benoit, even so far as to not talk about him by name whatsoever.  But to remove his best matches from ANOTHER performers DVD does bother me a bit.  His actions don't take away the match at that time, however I guess most people can't seperate the person from the performer whatsoever.  

And the WWE has rehired guys after DUIs, domestic violence cases, drug deals, armed robberies, etc etc.  So it's not as if the guys they actively promote don't have criminal pasts as well.  Not nearly to this level, just throwing that out there as well.

I agree as well with Scotty (I think it was him) that this would open the door to people wanting MORE Benoit stuff, but those people will always be there regardless to an extent.

And Creed just absolutely nailed it.  I think it's mostly a case of why bring any more of this back on ourselves, there are TONS of amazing Angle, etc matches without Benoit in them.  Just personally wish they weren't blackballed imo.

[piperspitt]

Rein, you get it. I agree that there are plenty of good matches for Angle, Orton, or whoever, but some of the matches with Benoit were important in the grand scheme.

JDub, you really need to read before you respond. I'm not upset about anything, especially not having Benoit matches on DVD.  I don't avoid buying DVDs because he is not on them. I've bought 10 from wwe.com in the last month.  I already own many old DVDs with Benoit matches on them, I'm not sure if I've watched any since the murders.  I'm not sure if you thing wrestling is glorifying or if you're using that word as an exaggeration.  The word doesn't fit with the way I feel about WWE.

Overall, I agree that there was a time to pretend that he didn't exist, but just seems immature and ignorant to continue that. It's certainly not a well kept secret.

[JDub]

JDub, you really need to read before you respond.

You can continue to argue with the wall if you feel like it. Your obviously stuck in your opinion and don't want to see it from any other angle. Which begs the question why did you even bring this topic up then?

[piperspitt]

When you make up stuff to argue against because it makes it easier for you, it avoids the real questions which are:
1. Would there be backlash if incidental mentions Benoit of Benoit happened?
Or matches in which he happened to be involved in were shown in context of another wrestler?

2. If yes, where specifically would the backlash come from?

3. What would the specific reasoning be?

Don't be the wall.

[JDub]

When you make up stuff to argue against because it makes it easier for you, it avoids the real questions which are:

And you seem to have selected vision. Funny you kept bringing up OJ yet didn't respond to anything I said about how what OJ did doesn't reflect on the NFL but what Benoit did reflects on WWE in many peoples eyes. Which IMO is a good reason not to want to bring him up again, but you know that was a valid point so you ignored it. It's just "you can't read" and "why shouldn't they mention him" over and over and over. Good bye.

[piperspitt]

I didn't ignore it, it is a valid point. I didn't have anything to expand with or disagree with.  I'm not sure that a reasonable person would think Benoit's murders reflect on the WWE, but the same goes for Simpson. Maybe Simpson will be checked for CTE when he dies. Enjoy your day.

[JDub]

I didn't ignore it, it is a valid point. I didn't have anything to expand with or disagree with.  I'm not sure that a reasonable person would think Benoit's murders reflect on the WWE, but the same goes for Simpson. Maybe Simpson will be checked for CTE when he dies. Enjoy your day.

An Error Has Occurred!
Sorry, you can't repeat a karma action without waiting 2 hours.

[piperspitt]

Lol, not the cowbell. I didn't even mention Favre

[LordFa9]

I didn't ignore it, it is a valid point. I didn't have anything to expand with or disagree with.  I'm not sure that a reasonable person would think Benoit's murders reflect on the WWE, but the same goes for Simpson. Maybe Simpson will be checked for CTE when he dies. Enjoy your day.

acknowledging another person's point even if you have no opinion on it would be a good start

Benoit is pretty much he-who-shall-not-be-named-or-referenced-to at this point in time. Maybe WWE will move on and maybe they won't but the fact is that is who he is now to the WWE

[piperspitt]

You just made a point, consider it acknowledged

But by acknowledging it I didn't really add anything to the thread?
If we acknowledge every point that we don't have an opinion on, the whole website will be spammed.

[gregburbidge]

I have been putting together his set of Raw Deal cards, but I do feel a little guilty while I do it. 

[Drywall]

I was a Chris Benoit fan.

Chris Benoit the wrestler, not Chris Benoit the person.

The way he wrestled and was portrayed on television, that's the Chris Benoit that I wish to remember.

Does he need to be in the HOF? NO. His inclusion of lack thereof will not change how I feel about him. I can still watch his matches. I'm honestly proud of the fact that WWE hasn't tried to capitalize or profit from his death in some twisted, sick way.

Hell, I love Owen Hart and he will most likely not see the HOF in my lifetime, that doesn't mean he wasn't an amazing wrestler.

[king1050]

i agree with everyones point of view, not mentioning a great wrestler cause of what he did is stupid. A lot of the wrestlers that died have vince and the wwe to blame in my opinion.

If Owen hart said no vince i will not come from the rafters he would have been out of a job and vince wouldve just kept pressuring him to do it.  Every member of the wwe is on some type of drug whether for injury or to keep themselves going on the road all those days, wwe puts too much pressure and forces the guys to work too much and that is gonna send them to do drugs to keep up or completely lose it.

Don't use a big word where a diminutive one will suffice.