Legacy of Chris Benoit

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• (August 06, 2008, 10:47:20 PM)

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piperspitt
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[kbjone]

My opinion on this is pretty basic:

If Benoit only killed himself, I could still watch his older stuff, and not be too upset. Saddened at his loss, but not to the point where I'd rather watch almost anything else.

BUT, he killed two other people: his wife, and his son. Once you decide to kill someone else, any sympathy I may have had for you goes away*.

(*This does NOT apply to self-defense, but anyone stating that Benoit really needed to kill his son in self-defense needs mental help. Seriously.)

[cfones]

The only thing I will say about this is what the people close to Benoit have said that while what he did will hurt the ability to tell whole story of full events in the WWE that they are right to not do anything at this time. There is no good that will come from this either way there is no right or wrong answer, but not matter what the situation WWE will allways be in the wrong with someone while some people will state that because of this they should put Benoit on DVD or tape and make reference to him there is still a lot of people who do not watch WWE that can make there life hell and that would be to target the people who WWE need more than the live gate or PPV Review or merchandise sales that would be the sponsors that bring in the most money to the company also remember WWE is now a public company and they could not afford the backlash at this time. Will there be a point in the future when Benoit will be mentioned that is a possibility but with a movie coming out that is not positive of Benoit or WWE and with the fact that there is still a strong negative  public opinion to him will keep him in the shadows and sadly that is where he belongs right now let's revisit this in ten more years and maybe it will happen.

[gregburbidge]

A lot of the wrestlers that died have vince and the wwe to blame in my opinion.

I've been following the thread, and it's an interesting discussion.  I'd just point out the problem isn't that Benoit died... the problem is he killed two people. 

It might be easy for those of us who are adults to separate out the issues, and say "Let's see that Angle match, because it was a great match for Angle."  But not everyone can separate Benoit the wrestler and Benoit the murderer. 

On top of this, WWE has had longstanding issues though with problems of imitation (don't try this at home).  They receive all sorts of pressure to clean up things that we don't see on TV (drug screenings, etc).   I can't imagine the rewards of including Benoit are worth any of the questions that would get raised if they do.

[Rein]

Matt Hardy chimed in for what it's worth on Twitter:


- Matt Hardy wrote the following on Twitter yesterday regarding WWE's policy of not mentioning Chris Benoit:

"I totally understand why WWE has adopted a non-Benoit policy, that's a business move to attempt to distance themselves from Chris's terrible final actions. My point is that I don't have to cater to & speak by "WWE history", as opposed to actual, factual history. WWE can treat the Benoit situation as if he never existed, but in reality, he absolutely did."

[Turd Ferguson]

I just want to say the reason I can separate Benoit the wrestler from Benoit the murderer is that the autopsy showed his brain was the fact that his brain was dying. His brain was destroyed by dementia. If you have ever known anyone with Alzheimer's you would know how that can radically alter someone's personality and cause them to act in ways they themselves can not control. I would recommend everyone to read this article.

[gregburbidge]

Turd -- point well taken. I think the WWE would still have a hard time with Backlash, but because not all people are as intentional in their consideration as you were.

[HalfBadger]

I understand WWEs side and Piper's in a way.

This thread got confusing for me, so I'm not sure where we are on the main issue.

All it would take is someone to find out Benoit is on a current sold DVD, that sort of knows what he did, to go to the media and start a huge frenzy and protest against WWE. People have protested things less rationally than something like this. I think the WWE is concerned about the backlash by ignorant ppl, that could hurt their stocks and events.

However in some way I understand Piper's point of view. How many movies make money off of killers. From movies about Jack the Ripper to movies with Nazis. How is the movie Ingloriuos Basterds more acceptable than Benoit vs Angle matches on an Angle dvd?

I think another issue with Benoit is that we don't know a lot of the details. People could (and have) blame the WWE for various reasons, for the tragedy. I think that's one difference with OJ. I don't recall people lumping OJ with other NFL players or blaming the NFL. With Benoit it's what ppl did and would easily do again. Somebody still think roid rage was the main cause for the tragedy, even though it was disapproved early on.

WWE just doesn't want to risk having to deal with all the ignorant irrational ppl that would protest them, for no reason because someone manipulated them to.

[burninginthesky]

The problem I find is that, there is such a fine line between praise and acknowledgement. Benoit was considered a great wrestler with a storied career, defined by championships and good matches. To acknowledge his career is almost to praise it. The wwe has put benoit matches in their anthology sets, for completion's sake i suppose, but it'll be a while before we see him on any "best of" dvds. I highly doubt he'll make the hall of fame. I believe it's better off this way. The benoit tragedy cast such a dark shadow on the wrestling world and I don't think we should revel in it. I can't even watch one of his matches without being a little creeped out.

[piperspitt]

Do you feel acknowledging the holocaust is praising it? I'm not seeing your point on that at all.

[JDub]

Do you feel acknowledging the holocaust is praising it? I'm not seeing your point on that at all.

He was saying what Hitler did was 1,000 times worse then what Benoit did, yet we have Schindler's List and tons of other books and movies that companies are making money off of. If WWE puts Benoit on a DVD how can people criticize WWE for making money off of Benoit any more than they can criticize Universal Pictures for making Schindler's List?

The difference is Germany didn't make Schindler's List and make money from it. That's something they would like to sweep under the rug and forget about. Just like WWE want's people to forget about the whole Benoit steroid thing. If that Benoit movie gets made whatever movie company makes it would probably get little to no flack for making it as apposed to if WWE made the same movie. Could you even imagine the amount of backlash and bad press WWE would get if they were the ones to produce a movie about Benoit's life?

[LordFa9]

The problem I find is that, there is such a fine line between praise and acknowledgement. Benoit was considered a great wrestler with a storied career, defined by championships and good matches. To acknowledge his career is almost to praise it. The wwe has put benoit matches in their anthology sets, for completion's sake i suppose, but it'll be a while before we see him on any "best of" dvds. I highly doubt he'll make the hall of fame. I believe it's better off this way. The benoit tragedy cast such a dark shadow on the wrestling world and I don't think we should revel in it. I can't even watch one of his matches without being a little creeped out.

Do you feel acknowledging the holocaust is praising it? I'm not seeing your point on that at all.

I think what burninginthesky is trying to say is:

putting beniot's matches in a 'best of' DVD
-> someone sees it and thinks WWE is presenting Chris 'murderer' Beniot in a positive light
-> complains to the media about it (you'd be surprised what people complain about)
-> sh!t hits the fan

also the Germans don't exactly deny the Holocaust, they keep changing the subject when its brought up (same as the Japs with the Nanjing Massacre). WWE is doing the same; avoid the chance of controversy by just keeping mum

Just like WWE want's people to forget about the whole Benoit steroid thing.

sometimes the answer is really that simple

[burninginthesky]

The point was that you can't recognize someone's accomplishments without people possibly interpreting as it praise. Sometimes recognizing someone's accomplishments IS praising them, much like with the WWE hall of fame. If the WWE were to put benoit in the hall of fame, the media would spin it as the WWE praising a murderer. It doesn't really benefit the WWE to mention benoit. It doesn't make them money, it doesn't give them good PR and probably bothers as many fans as it satisfies. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

[piperspitt]

But that isn't the question. It's been said repeatedly that the question isn't "can WWE make a best of Benoit DVD and make money off of him?" it's more like "can WWE mention on an Orton DVD that Orton won the title from Benoit and possibly have the match to make money off of Orton?". If you weren't answering that question, you're answering a question that wasn't asked. It's obvious that WWE wouldn't put out a Benoit DVD or put him in the HoF. It's less obvious of whether they will forever ignore the history of other superstars that wrestled him.
  I agree totally with your Hitler comment, it brings to mind Ozzie Guillen's comment on Castro. Even though you can qualify and prove a comment, people will still take it wrong (especially when the media makes a headline out of context and so many people read only headlines.)

[JDub]

The point was that you can't recognize someone's accomplishments without people possibly interpreting as praise. If you were to call hitler a "great leader", which in some respects he may have been, there would be some people who would interpret that as anti-semetic. That's what the wwe is trying to avoid. Giving the media any ammunition. It doesn't benefit the wwe to mention benoit, so they try not to if they don't have to.

That's the thing they bring him up in any way shape or form and it will look to some like they are praising him.

The funny thing is every time I've seen this topic brought up everyone always says how dare WWE "ignore history". Yet I've never heard one good reason why WWE, as a business, should take any type of risk by bringing up Benoit again. The risk (which is huge) vs the reward (which is next to nothing) just isn't worth it. Why risking getting any kind of negative media attention and/or lose money in any way just so you can have a Orton vs Benoit match on a Randy Orton DVD? It absolutly boggles my mind that people just can't grasp this. If anyone want's to see Orton vs Benoit bad enough they can go buy the original DVD or look it up on YouTube. People just like to complain about stuff. It shouldn't have to be this way, but unfortunately that's the way the world works. WWE is a billion dollar corporation, I think they know what they are doing.

[burninginthesky]

Will the WWE ever make mention of benoit? I don't know, I don't think so. It's just too much potential for a media sh*tstorm and the WWE is a already a target for controversy. Benoit is an easily avoided hot button. They would probably try to dance around it if they released another orton dvd.

[piperspitt]

The point was that you can't recognize someone's accomplishments without people possibly interpreting as praise. If you were to call hitler a "great leader", which in some respects he may have been, there would be some people who would interpret that as anti-semetic. That's what the wwe is trying to avoid. Giving the media any ammunition. It doesn't benefit the wwe to mention benoit, so they try not to if they don't have to.

That's the thing they bring him up in any way shape or form and it will look to some like they are praising him.

The funny thing is every time I've seen this topic brought up everyone always says how dare WWE "ignore history". Yet I've never heard one good reason why WWE, as a business, should take any type of risk by bringing up Benoit again. The risk (which is huge) vs the reward (which is next to nothing) just isn't worth it. Why risking getting any kind of negative media attention and/or lose money in any way just so you can have a Orton vs Benoit match on a Randy Orton DVD? It absolutly boggles my mind that people just can't grasp this. If anyone want's to see Orton vs Benoit bad enough they can go buy the original DVD or look it up on YouTube. People just like to complain about stuff. It shouldn't have to be this way, but unfortunately that's the way the world works. WWE is a billion dollar corporation, I think they know what they are doing.

That's the thing. I call the bluff. There is minimal risk in putting his matches on another superstar's DVD.  The media wouldn't notice. The WWE wouldn't lose money. It just doesn't make sense that anybody would make a big deal out of it.  There isn't an NPO that would gain media coverage by protesting it. The media barely recognizes real controversy because it's pro wrestling, the media would gain even less for something so trivial.  I still think WWE will let more time elapse before they are willing to acknowledge him, but with the WWE network coming it won't be long. He will have to appear if they want to show old Raw/Smackdown/PPVs from his era in their entirety.

[JDub]

That's the thing. I call the bluff. There is minimal risk in putting his matches on another superstar's DVD.  The media wouldn't notice. The WWE wouldn't lose money. It just doesn't make sense that anybody would make a big deal out of it.  There isn't an NPO that would gain media coverage by protesting it. The media barely recognizes real controversy because it's pro wrestling, the media would gain even less for something so trivial.  I still think WWE will let more time elapse before they are willing to acknowledge him, but with the WWE network coming it won't be long. He will have to appear if they want to show old Raw/Smackdown/PPVs from his era in their entirety.

As someone who has brought up and complained about people blowing dumb comments out of proportion or protesting over stupid stuff on this site numerous times I find it extremely hard to believe that you wouldn't think that there would be people out there who would want to make a big deal about WWE putting Benoit on a DVD. But this just isn't an argument I can win. I have no way to prove that anyone would make a big deal about it. Although it's not like you can prove with any certainty that people wouldn't either.

But you say there is minimal risk and even if that is true I'd like to know what exactly do they gain from it? If they aren't "making money" off of him like you say then why even bother if there is even a 0.000000000001% chance at any kind of backlash? I mean people act like WWE is the ultimate keeper of pro wrestling history. They spin what they want the way they want it. They don't want you to know about something or a certain wrestler they don't bring it up. So why is it always with Benoit that it's such a big deal that they don't include him as part of history yet they can omit so much other stuff and it's no big deal to people? No one has any problems with that?

[piperspitt]

Omitting Chris Benoit is no worse than omitting Bruno Sammartino or Owen Hart. You are correct about WWE and revisionist history. The Ultimate Warrior DVD is a prime example of the WWE skewing facts one direction.
  The reason people think of WWE as the historical keepers is because nobody else has the rights to do it. I would love a Kurt Angle anthology of his time in the WWE, but if WWE doesn't make it Unjversal Studios or Fox can't jump in and make it.
  As for the gain for WWE. They don't make money of Benoit in this case. They might make a very slight increase in sales for somebody looking for that one match to make the Orton DVD better, but not much of a difference. They gain from subtraction. They save on editing costs of eliminating matches, moments, and commentary. More importantly, the gain the truth which is easier and more compelling. Overall, this is an instance where something is done out of respect for the business rather than for financial gain or cost cutting.

[TheGreatWhiteDope]

Difference between the three:

Benoit - They will acknowledge when they must. WWE's encyclopedia has a half a page for him and his name is listed as world champion. He is also listed as winner in all of his wrestlemania matches. If they can say it without saying it (ie: Randy Orton became the youngest champion ever at Summerslam) then they will make sure to do it that way.

Owen - Owen is mentioned. Anything related to Bret Hart always goes into Owen too. They put Owen in DVDs. King of the Ring, Hart anthology, cage match anthologies. They talk about Owen, they praise him. He'll just never get a DVD set or Hall of Fame of his own because his wife is very vocal about how horrible that would be. Understandable they don't do it for her.

Bruno - I've heard Bruno talk about this before. He honestly doesn't care. WWE Hall of Fame, Best of DVD, etc etc...Bruno's exact stance is this: If Vince wants to do it he can do it. I can't stop him and he already owns all the footage. I won't show up, I won't be there. He doesn't need me there. He has everything he needs of me to do what he wants with it. If he inducts me he inducts me. If he shuns me he shuns me. If he makes a best of Bruno and sells millions he does that too.
 The reason these things haven't happened at all is probably just Vince's respect of Bruno Sammartino. Seriously. He probably doesn't want to feel like he disrespected the man. Bruno just doesn't like the way he took the business. Bruno might not be happy or enjoy Vince's new promotion but that doesn't mean Vince still can't respect him and how he feels about things.


as it pertains to this:

I still think WWE will let more time elapse before they are willing to acknowledge him, but with the WWE network coming it won't be long. He will have to appear if they want to show old Raw/Smackdown/PPVs from his era in their entirety.

They've already fixed that problem. On WWE 24/7 they actually show full Nitros and Raws from that era. They show the monday night wars. Only difference? All Chris Benoit matches are edited out. Anytime the commentary team would talk about Benoit or his feud during another match they just instead cut commentary off until they're done talking. So again, no. Chris Benoit won't even be on those shows.

The only segment they've ever kept in with him since that is Arn Anderson's retirement speech with the entire horsemen in the ring. That is because no one mentions him at all or talks about him. Other than that, he is cut out of it all.

[piperspitt]

The differences between those three are very common knowledge. I'm not sure what you're getting at there or the reason for pointing them out. The only reason I mentioned them is that JDub was arguing that everybody cares that Benoit is left out, but doesn't care if others are left out. Obviously he is mistaken as people do care that other wrestlers ate omitted from anthologies, HoF, or anything else.

[TheGreatWhiteDope]

The differences between those three are very common knowledge. I'm not sure what you're getting at there or the reason for pointing them out. The only reason I mentioned them is that JDub was arguing that everybody cares that Benoit is left out, but doesn't care if others are left out. Obviously he is mistaken as people do care that other wrestlers ate omitted from anthologies, HoF, or anything else.

ah, reading through I missed the content and just got that hart and bruno were also omitted and was clearing up why. Bruno's case is actually the most interesting. He doesn't give a f*** but McMahon does seem to just truly respect his contribution so much he won't do it.

but with benoit, even raw and things..he is just out. I mean, it happened, it's how they're dealing with it. We could have an endless argument about it but in the end that is the definitive answer. Will it change sometime in the future? who knows? That won't be for a super long time though. I'm talking like 2 decades-ish. Maybe.

[HalfBadger]

also the Germans don't exactly deny the Holocaust, they keep changing the subject when its brought up (same as the Japs with the Nanjing Massacre). WWE is doing the same; avoid the chance of controversy by just keeping mum

In Germany I believe, at least in court, it's illegal to deny the holocaust. I still don't fully understand the point you are making. You're saying there are no German (or other axis powers country) movie about WW2 or the holocaust? Can you confirm this? The point though is ppl are making money off of the holocaust and other horrible things various regimes and ppl have done.  They rarely if ever get huge protests etc.

Does WWE have anthology DVDs or what ever, with superstars in gimmicks like the evil German, Soviet, Iranian etc?  That'd be WWE making money off others suffering. I think there may be a time when WWE doesn't totally censor Benoit from their DVDs etc. Maybe another decadish, they'll slowly have his matches or references and see how ppl react.

[piperspitt]

Somebody posted a comment saying that acknowledging something was the same as praising it. So I asked if acknowledging the holocaust is praising it. I thought it was obvious in my question, acknowledgment does NOT equal praise.  It was a really simple point but for some reason the history of Germany and war films got pulled into the thread.

[LordFa9]

I'll try to distill the convo to present it in a simplified way; bear in mind its all my opinion.

Lets say Fanboy Joe is a crazy fan of say...Randy Orton (I can't really remember if Randy had high profile feud with Benoit, but for example's sake lets say he did).

Now Joe buys a "Best of Orton" DVD, and on it is one of his matches with Benoit. While Joe is watching the match, Joe gets more and more livid. How DARE WWE sully the awesomeness that is Randy Orton with that child murdering, wife beating SOB Benoit! (Joe is a just a parody of the Benoit haters, no offense intended). Fanboyish outrage soon turns to self righteousness. Why did WWE do this. Shouldn't Benoit be consigned to the deepest pits of hell?? Isn't it sacrilege to mention Benoit in the same breath as The Viper, The Legend Killer RANDY ORTON??

It will all start off with an innocent comment on whichever forum Joe hangs out in, something along the lines of "Bought Best of Orton and the 1st thing I saw when I popped in disc 2 was that [insert descriptive term of your choice here] murderer. Thanks WWE, my CD is now defiled". Posts in response to this will slowly get more inflammatory, more people will rally to his cause and sooner or later pitchforks and angry mobs will come into play along with the media sh!tstorm

Does the above story sound outrageous? Absolutely! It is plausible, well...yes unfortunately. Does WWE want to take the 0.0000001% chance it will happen? Oh HELL NO. The solution? Benoit is now he-who-shall-not-be-named

I rest my case

*30 May edit: tweaked the story a bit

[piperspitt]

It's more likely that you would see wrestling fans react the opposite way and post angerly that a certain match was NOT included. Your example does not fit in with anything I have ever seen, but I'll concede that this is a situation with out parallel.

Build a man fire and he's warm for a day, set a man on fire he will be warm the rest of his life.