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[FuryOfTheStormKW]

Whoa now Big Bear, this wasn't fully explained.

Cantor obtained the deck through a leak in our private forum (the actual means is still up in air, he was either on Jeff Scotts account or another RDE player gave it to him). He posted that deck about six different times in 10 minutes in an effort to expose this deck. Now people saw this at origins, they could've warned somebody. Antigoth didnt do anything but take off Cantor posting our decklist (which at the time was not known or posted) in public forums.

Antigoth did nothing wrong. Get your facts straight bucco.

[JCsBck]

Bear

What personal gain? I'm trying to help friends. That's personal gain? What Am I personally gaining? Why don't you yell at the RDE people for not spoiling their own/friends deck?

I completely understood Antigoth. The deck was posted in a PRIVATE forum. Someone ( I'm not naming him in here, the people involved know who) from the private forum gave it to me. It was in a private forum for a reason.

[domalama728]

There is truth in this the decklist from origins was posted on ci and no one asked what it did or why it lost, and why would we reveal its secret. the reason goth deleted the posts was because there was new tech that the community on a whole had not seen the up and at ems in the deck which were a huge change/improvment. if it had been the one straight off the sight we could have had no objection

[Destaro]

Did anyone contemplate HOTN or Rules even? The FBI might have a shot as well. Personally I ran into the Benoit verison at the CNY Championship and it wasn't anything unstoppable. Unfortunately, I did lose but only because I had the wrong Action reversal in my hand 

Anywho, not having banned cards it part of what makes Raw Deal great. I vote people wait until Revo 3 hits and see how the deck fairs. There have been many, many "broken" decks and nothing was ever banned to "fix" the environment. I would like to maintain that tradition and allow players the opportunity to use the resources available.

[Big Bear]

Ahhh.......that is HUGELY different.  I still would have let the leaked information stay posted until someone showed proof of intellectual property, but it was obviously a respect issue.  I still have respect for the guy who leaked the problem (given the proposition that the guy was worried about the state of the game).

On the RDE thing....remember, there is no intellectual property or proprietary tech in card games. No judgement call, but we are basically talking about "nothing to see here, move along". It isn't like you created anything, you just put 2 and 2 together and got "Barron is such a effing idiot".

I ain't telling anyone what to do, but If i were still  playing, I'd tell RDE to eff off, spoil their tech and show up with the Big Show deck I was going to play anyway. That's because I feel that the best thing about Raw Deal has always been the generally interesting quality of people with a similar interest, not because there is a low-tier worlds championship to play.  Heck, for all that Creed and I go to, I'm fairly sure that I could spend a really enjoyable 4-6 hours just hanging with him digging on wrestling.


If anyone playing this game competitively is in it to push their intelligence and become respected as a player, Raw Deal ain't your game. If you want to identify a specific flaw in what is effectively a game designed by one person with serious personality issues and a ridiculous play style, then maybe you can be the next Raw Deal champion.


Off topic (since every9one will read this) what are the release dates for Backlash and the set after it? I noticed that the Wiki didn't have any of the release dates or i think any of the Mike Fitzgerald/delay information in it.

Nearly P.S. "Anywho, not having banned cards it part of what makes Raw Deal great. " is not true. It is a symptom of the thing which has prevented Raw Deal from being great.  Cards are banned in order to create a balanced play environment but are also indicitave of failure. Raw Deal, although having failed to become a top 3 or top 5 game and in fact steadily declining in playerbase and sales, has never had a failure of the playtest process, right...... all of the erratta are simply clarifications or printing errors.

[JCsBck]

To the one dude, they pack waist lock and rest hold for rules. If you find a way to stop the moves consitently ( like goldberg) you're good. But this really only works vs the rey. HHH could do cerebral/rules vs kennedy. Play HOTN and see how far you get.

Bear,  why would I post their decks or how to beat it? You guys didn't do that when Daddy had his Steph ( back when RD was fun). You guys just said how good it was, but none of you ever posted it. I think someone is a hypocrite.

[domalama728]

the deck i played at central new york was not even close to the combo it was basically just a bunch of tech moves and hope to get out rabid if you didnt no big deal that deck was also afterburn and just something we whipped together because we werent playtesting that format and the only game it lost was to laise because i got tricked into thinking how that prematch should go by playing agianst a laise without switcheroo constantly before lcq(deck was just modded version of my lcq deck)

the deck has to play extremely differently against highlights abilty but its far from unwinnable but i would say it is one of the less desirable matchups...but thats only because they have a chance when they sit down across from the deck...and as for the fbi better hope you face the decks in top 32(if you make it with them)cuz they prolly cant beat any legitimate decks

rules can be bothersome in the right deck(basically the already troublesome match ups get a little worse) but i handled it easily twice at gen con and had a tough time with it at origins because of serious cockiness against ewing in the play off for 8th position which was definitely a poor decision

[FuryOfTheStormKW]

I think telling us to "eff off" is really dragging down your ability to convince anyone your slanted side of the story.

The tech was already "spoiled" at Origins when 2 of us played it and killed everyone with it. We lost to Heyman putting in Cell, so the deck didn't get hyped. A month and a half people had a chance to speak up, but rather than tell people, they went out and played superstars that had a chance against our decks (Bryan McDermott played Teddy at GenCon, with HiaC, which I know beat Dom, but I packed Vince for Teddy/Steph/Eric). Bryan had the advantage of going to Origins and seeing it, and maybe didnt want to tell anybody so we beat all the other people and he beat us. Teddy is good no matter what but we cleared away everybody for him was his side I think.

People not talking is not our problem, nor is it our prerogative to inform everyone how our decks worked. Its the same "wah wah wah" bull it always was. You want something banned? Don't complain, don't point fingers, don't tell us what you would do "if you still played." Nobody gives a damn about your opinion. You pick fights whenever possible, especially with mods, where I like your points sometimes, but now you are just being speculatory and you are ignorant to anything involving Revolution cards.

You have no effect on this game, you are just a downer, and you have nothing positive to say about anything anymore. If you don't play this game anymore than why do you even bother posting anything, what good are you to anybody in these forums with your propaganda and your crap. Nobody needs it anymore, if you feel the game left you behind, then maybe you should leave it, and us, behind.

[domalama728]

I ain't telling anyone what to do, but If i were still  playing, I'd tell RDE to eff off, spoil their tech and show up with the Big Show deck I was going to play anyway. That's because I feel that the best thing about Raw Deal has always been the generally interesting quality of people with a similar interest, not because there is a low-tier worlds championship to play

Im sorry that i put alot of work into a deck and didnt want to tell people how to beat it, im sorry i do get a sense of accomplishment from winning a game i love a game i love for its mechanics and because i generally feel that it is the best game out today(and i absolutely hate pro wrestling)...

 wasnt it you back in the day Bear that said if you were going to a knife fight you should bring the biggest knife you could find or something of that sort...

[Destaro]

Well I'd love to face a few of these builds come Canada. I don't doubt the effectiveness of the deck but I don't think metagaming is even necessary to stop it. I suppose only time will tell.

[Big Bear]

Bear,  why would I post their decks or how to beat it? You guys didn't do that when Daddy had his Steph ( back when RD was fun). You guys just said how good it was, but none of you ever posted it. I think someone is a hypocrite.

Understandable, you made the same mistake that I did!  Joe lives in Orlando, I live 2-3 hours south in Palm Beach County. By the time he was running rampant with Steph, we had stopped making our monthly trips to Orlando. While we had our own Steph 'issue' on our team, there was also Team US from Miami playing a similar Steph.  There wasn't a universally game breaking issue with Steph other than the enforcer issue so there wasn't anything to spoil.

However, as soon as I heard about the Original Goldberg Issue, I  was going to comment on both Not Today Pal (which was an out of print rare that I personally had about 9 of) and did comment on That's Enough Out of You!, the only non-rare, non-branded, non-traited reversal that could stop the combo (although it was a card you didn't necessarily want 3 of against most decks). This is still considering  that it wasn't a deck anyone in South Florida was playing. Heck, since I love Pat and Gerry, I built the deck and walked into a turn 1 JBI because all of our face decks packed 2-3 of them in a casual game.

Actually, what I said was that basically if you are going to a knife fight and have to buy your knife off of the internet, buy the knife and let the guy complain while he is bleeding. You still have to be the better knife fighter.  The analogy is that you let a bunch of guys walk into a knife fight knowing their knife was going to fall apart in their hands while your buddy has a knife that is properly made and then celebrating when everyone else's knife falls apart.  Just because the knife store lied about how well their knives hold up doesn't make you a good person for not pointing that out. It also doesn't make your friends better knife fighters...just better knife buyers.

And for the RDE guys, too bad. You guys choose the terms on which you want to win. You seem to feel that personal glory is more important than the long term longevity of the game.  No judgement call, just an ovservation.  You had a choice between competition and altruism and chose competition. Congratulations on your victory. It was well deserved and is a testament to your ability to function as a team. Those things are all postive. You aren't beholden to me in any way so I'm not sure why should be so concerned about my opinion.  The "eff" is a metaphorical "effing" in that it would be nice if people  were more concerned about the global group instead of their localized friendships.  Maybe we are all jumping the gun and there are 10-20 viable deck types that can deal with the <R> Full Nelson Slam/Tech Crab paradigm, but if it is another stupidly limited number of options, is it better to have won worlds at the cost of more players leaving over a "percieved" NPE or being the guy who cares more about the longevity of the game than worlds?

PPS - Two Claws up for ANY use of Up And At 'Em. Regardless of anything else, these guys did the work.

[HalfBadger]

I don't have time to make a full post here, just didn't think it had been pointed out yet.

Antigoth was playing/abusing some of the key 'Balls' cards for over a year and r3d3mption has been credited with taking the combo a step further. Both of these guys are from Winnipeg, making at least the foundation of "Balls" the newest SWT.

I've played against various 'balls' type decks and have thought of some ways to beat it/get around. I haven't checked out some of the newer decks/developments.

This isn't the first and won't be the last powerful combo in Raw Deal, it has a lot more cards involved in it than others in the past, which makes it more open for weakspots/bad match-ups.

I agree with Goth, if they're gonna ban/modify 1-2 cards of this combo, I'd like to them ban/modify some other cards as well.

[BigJohnStudd]

The decks are not unbeatable, but there is combos that should be addressed by the powers that be in order to make the combo less broken.

The problem with combo is it isnt just 1 deck or one superstar.... it is a combo that potentally ANYONE could play unless you are a female superstar.

I have talked with the designers of this deck, and I am in agreement with RDE. If I make a deck do I go around saying "HERES HOW YOU BEAT IT"... Ef that. Bear I am sure those guys will do that when you play a deck, it wins a qualifier, nobody has a REASONABLE way to stop it, and you post about where its achilles heel.

Actually there is very few ways to hold this combo at bay because the average counters to this deck they have counters to those as well and like i posted earlier if you can beat one or two of these decks, it is the third version, forth version that kills you, You might be able to play cell, managed by bishoff and RWMTBB but then you play the kennedy version, even H cant play the cell against that deck. 

decks are more than likely going to need to be smackdown for plan b, pack 3 lwa's 3 dont trys an 18 action reversals, but then they need to beat that apa deck with no ace's or actions,. playing revo moves next round.... SEE THE PROBLEM!!!

RDE actually came up with a pretty decient way to stop it, hell it was posted, I saw the deck play once at the con (balls) and knew right then and there about most of why certian things were packed at origins, and the reports all made sense.

Bear people dont have to post crap... hell from what I hear in the magic enviroment if you want you actually can have your deck not posted at your request. I would have addressed this combo anyway but even the RDE thinks the problem needs to be addressed too. If the combo is not shut down in the next qualifier and most of the rest of the field still loses to "balls" I think that we should have a banned card or two.

I absolutely refuse to give people the answers to problems that if you have half a brain, read the Qualifier reports, and look at the combo from an objective eye, should have some inkeling on how to stop. Its damn near totally unstoppable but then again it does have faults. The answers are on tco and CI but I will not direct anyone to something that is already in their face. I ADDRESSED THE PROBLEM. It is either up to CI to ban something (doubtful, cause barron does not make mistakes) or people need to be prepared and have answers available if it comes up. I dont want someone to realize the power of this deck and then take it to the next qualifier and win just cause nobody realized how the decks at Gen Con worked. THAT is not fair. I just wish someone at origins would have told the field, but then again 7 of the top 8 were RDE, do I rather doubt that they would tell the entire world about RDE's broke combo. I wouldnt do that to one of my players, so dont expect that of RDE bear...

bear.... this is not rants.... this is general discussion, please dont start flaming on this (just asking please) Cause If this gets moved to rants nobody will read it. I want my community to be informed. So does RDE. They actually talked to barron about this (from what I heard) and barron went on this thing of "its not broken, there are counters to it, it didnt even win the con" or something like that. So RDE went and made more decks of it to prove to barron at Gen Con how broken this combo is.... and he didnt show, and 3 of the top 4 in a field of 69 basically were the same deck with different superstars. Aparently he didnt have "personal Issues" But I will never reveal my source on that one.......

[AfroThunder]

That's some nice base covering.  I do enjoy a good challenge though.

There are a couple of decks which would at least get a winning record while stopping Tech thingy.  Enough to get into the top cut, I guess.

The combo is awesome, and I expect it to win at least 1 more qualifier (maybe one of Canada's many sub ones), but this may be last year's IoF Carlito.

Also, if we must know a couple of decks, I'd probably go for Doink or Evolution.  There would be more that are top/mid tier that could also put up a fight.

[BigJohnStudd]

That's some nice base covering.  I do enjoy a good challenge though.

There are a couple of decks which would at least get a winning record while stopping Tech thingy.  Enough to get into the top cut, I guess.

The combo is awesome, and I expect it to win at least 1 more qualifier (maybe one of Canada's many sub ones), but this may be last year's IoF Carlito.

Also, if we must know a couple of decks, I'd probably go for Doink or Evolution.  There would be more that are top/mid tier that could also put up a fight.

Doink has problems with the rey version and the Kennedy version, and the bobby version OWNS doink... not even funny.

I'll give it one more qualifier, if people still dont know how to stop it I will spill the beans on all my think tank has come up with to destroy the deck, but trust me its not much....

[AfroThunder]

The Kennedy version, yes.  But Doink can normally control the others pretty well.  And why would Brain laugh at Doink more then Rey?  In my opinion, the Rey would be alot more anoying then Brain.

[Antigoth]

Bear,

    Welcome to TCO. On TCO there are a number of Private groups on the site.
These groups range from a private area for the mods and admins to discuss site issues, team sections for groups like RDE, TTX, or TFtM.

    Within those areas the groups operate understanding that what is discussed is viewable only to its members, and to us admins who need to know what's going on, on our site.

    Prior to Origins Cantor somehow gained access to the RDE section, and directly cut and paste content from the private forum, and posted it like wildfire across TCO, in an effort to thwart RDE's attempts to build the best deck.

    As someone who provides the private sections, it's my obligation to ensure that the trust from those who I provide the private forums to is maintained. I saw someone who gained info through nefarious means, and I quashed it.

    Cantor admitted where he got it. There is no question of who the intellectual property belonged to.

    Now, please take your reprimand of me elsewhere. After Origins I did nothing to quash the conversation. People were too busy pointing fingers after Origins to talk about what won and how to beat it.

    Origins did nothing to grow the game.

    Right now is not the time to throw more accusations and finger point. Now is the time to figure out tech, and grow the game that we still love so that maybe it'll still be here in a year. 

[BigJohnStudd]

The Kennedy version, yes.  But Doink can normally control the others pretty well.  And why would Brain laugh at Doink more then Rey?  In my opinion, the Rey would be alot more anoying then Brain.

bobby has about 15 backstage cards...... and he can copy doink's ability.... bobby also copys rey rey, but then again i think that rey has a good matchup against bobby but regardsless of which balls bobby has a problem with rey but i think it matters that bobby does not pack as many dressed for success as rey, but whatever.....

[Big Bear]

Hey Anti, you must admit that what you described wasn't what was posted. If it was someone ELSES private site, well, that is a different story. I'd never expect you do Barron a promise to your customers.

"Now is the time to figure out tech, and grow the game that we still love so that maybe it'll still be here in a year. "

This is something I agree with. I think you understand that CI tanking the game isn't cool for anyone, even if 'you' aren't a competitive player. In the best of all worlds, Barron would be fired, a banned list would be installed and the game would be balanced engough for me to trade away 10-20 sets in order to revolution update some decks and maybe have a few choice Revolution decks. I'd like to be able to drive to Miami once every few months and play the game.

[HalfBadger]

To the one dude, they pack waist lock and rest hold for rules. If you find a way to stop the moves consitently ( like goldberg) you're good. But this really only works vs the rey. HHH could do cerebral/rules vs kennedy. Play HOTN and see how far you get.

Brahma Bull takes care of Waist Lock and Rest Hold quite easily...

Maybe it's time for everyone to bring back..... J.R. Style Slobber Knocker. :-)

It seem one of the cons about the combo is that it can be fairly easily transfered to various Superstars, no one mentioned BoD :-(. However a pro for the combo is, you have to be a really good player/builder, to build your deck right and play the cards properly and not mess up.

It's basically another thing to 'separate the boys from the men' type thing. Also once the combo becomes common, the balls decks are gonna have to find ways to deal with other balls decks, which might balance things. However it'll be like the PRS/PSS days where you're either using the combo or teching almost exclusively against it.

[KevinPeters]

What is lost in this discussion is this.......

Balls does not need to play any cards to ring area to win. Slobberknocker does nothing.

Combo is plain and simply this in case of Rey......Power is back....tech clothesline hand away... Up and at Em as action...tech crab as action  (using thrust knee lift to remove discard pile.)

Bear, Insulting RDE and doing other nonsense is really getting old. Your opinion is acknowledged, but not really valued. 

[Big Bear]

Well, I guess I wont start insulting RDE. This will be in line with all the NOT insulting of RDE I've done so far.

Technical Point: Even with the cards not going to ring area, I believe that Slobberknocker stops discard to to play cards like Tech Dropkick as opposed to the Thrust Knee Lift non-activated ability.

Thank you for acknowledging and considering my opinion. 'Sall anyone can expect isn't it?

1/2 badger:
It seem one of the cons about the combo is that it can be fairly easily transfered to various Superstars, no one mentioned BoD :-(. However a pro for the combo is, you have to be a really good player/builder, to build your deck right and play the cards properly and not mess up.

At least there is that. I remember the kid with Goldberg that everyone called a scrub. Man was that a hate-filled month.

Oh Kevin, can I just insult you once? By using "doing other nonsense" and not "being nonsensical" you have proven yourself to be a colloquialist!. Ha HA! - COL-LOQ-UIAL-IST! HA HA!

[The Hurricane]

Well, I guess I wont start insulting RDE. This will be in line with all the NOT insulting of RDE I've done so far.

Technical Point: Even with the cards not going to ring area, I believe that Slobberknocker stops discard to to play cards like Tech Dropkick as opposed to the Thrust Knee Lift non-activated ability.

Thank you for acknowledging and considering my opinion. 'Sall anyone can expect isn't it?

1/2 badger:
It seem one of the cons about the combo is that it can be fairly easily transfered to various Superstars, no one mentioned BoD :-(. However a pro for the combo is, you have to be a really good player/builder, to build your deck right and play the cards properly and not mess up.

At least there is that. I remember the kid with Goldberg that everyone called a scrub. Man was that a hate-filled month.

Oh Kevin, can I just insult you once? By using "doing other nonsense" and not "being nonsensical" you have proven yourself to be a colloquialist!. Ha HA! - COL-LOQ-UIAL-IST! HA HA!

While JR Style Slobberknocker will stop the Technical Crab part of the combo it will no stop Technical Dropkick because JR Style Slobberknocker specifies it effects non set-up and non run-in actions. However just slowing down the Tech Crab is half the battle isn't it?

[TempestTenor]

Err..."Balls" is such a loaded word  Does it simply refer to any kind of deck that uses the combo you guys are talking about?

[JCsBck]

Well, I guess I wont start insulting RDE. This will be in line with all the NOT insulting of RDE I've done so far.

Technical Point: Even with the cards not going to ring area, I believe that Slobberknocker stops discard to to play cards like Tech Dropkick as opposed to the Thrust Knee Lift non-activated ability.

Thank you for acknowledging and considering my opinion. 'Sall anyone can expect isn't it?

1/2 badger:
It seem one of the cons about the combo is that it can be fairly easily transfered to various Superstars, no one mentioned BoD :-(. However a pro for the combo is, you have to be a really good player/builder, to build your deck right and play the cards properly and not mess up.

At least there is that. I remember the kid with Goldberg that everyone called a scrub. Man was that a hate-filled month.

Oh Kevin, can I just insult you once? By using "doing other nonsense" and not "being nonsensical" you have proven yourself to be a colloquialist!. Ha HA! - COL-LOQ-UIAL-IST! HA HA!

While JR Style Slobberknocker will stop the Technical Crab part of the combo it will no stop Technical Dropkick because JR Style Slobberknocker specifies it effects non set-up and non run-in actions. However just slowing down the Tech Crab is half the battle isn't it?

JR is 2f, and you need less fortitude. Balls decks win at 0f.

I'd have to admit I'd enjoy watching Sesame Street if it was a lot more violent. I mean, who wouldn't want to buy a "Sickle-Me Elmo" doll?